Any one knows of a Vet in NYC ( five boroughs and a bit beyond ) that sees WL dogs? - Page 16

Courage test=Trained response, its the REAL world that will get you every time.

If the judge truly breed surveyed the dogs he would’ve had to check them; run his hands on them, measure them, check their teeth, check their testicles, ect. He should’ve seen the nervousness during that process without the need for the vet doing DNA testing to tell him. That part of the breed survey is much more closely related to a vet exam than the actual “courage test” during the bite work. If the DNA test was done by taking blood and not just a cheek swab…I can completely understand why the dogs wouldn’t have liked that and acted nervous. There are people that are afraid of needles and giving blood…but people are reasonable and can understand what is happening, a dog cannot.

The courage test…or long bite…isn’t a representation of a dog’s over-all courage…it is just to see if and how the dog engages with a man. Anyone that has actually done Schutzhund/IPO would easily be able to understand the difference in what is being tested when a dog is sent for a bite and when the dog is being examined by a vet. Unfortunately, the person that made that post and quoted the judge has no idea what they’re talking about in the first place or how things are related…that’s been very clear from the get go of their posts.

It is well known that training can to some extent over-
ride temperament. Hence, yes, a dog can be 'successful'
in bitework (although of course there are degrees of success !)
and yet still be fearful / skittish / aggressive around Vets and
other (non-threatening) people. Lets also not forget that while
we see what the Vet is doing as helpful to the dog, the dog does
not necessarily understand why it has to put up with the intrusion.

I don't actually see anyone on here denying these points. But we
ARE saying that for everybody's sake - not least the dog - if that
fear is manifesting itself in bolshy behaviour towards the Vet or
visitors to your home etc, you really ought to be getting on top
of that rather than excusing it.


I am sorry about the 'gang' reference - I tend to forget that the word
gang is thought of more perjoratively in the States than we view it
over here, so what to me was just a "turn of phrase" may have seemed
more harsh to you. Does not stop me wondering why - whatever the
time-line - you haven't yet asked people about Vets through this/these
other sites you seem to think see things more as you do. But remember
this: the people over there may agree with you, but that does not have to
mean they are right, or any more 'expert' / knowledgeable than posters on
here.

'...that a FEARFULL dog ( PBD experts view of dog muzzled during vetting ) _ mithuna.

 That pdb 'experts' view a dog muzzled during vetting is necessarily fearfull isnt true. Several on this board stated they muzzle their dog for safety while examined by the vet, not because the dog is fearfull. I have two females and a male that must be muzzled. They are not fearfull and are cooperative while muzzled. Your dog, on the other hand, according to you is so uncooperative, even while muzzled, that you were prompted to ask if anyone can name a vet who will tend to your frantic dog...which you seem to believe is acting appropriately for a 'working line' gsd. The experts on here have made comments regarding the lack of control you describe with your dog as being detrimental to your dog's quality of life which you as owner must correct. And yes, a so called 'courage test' which a dog has been trained for can mask a dog's real temperament ( weaknerves, for example) displayed in real life.

The vet closest to me (who I do not use very much) muzzles my Beauty Krasnoocko. Well, I muzzle her- the vet doesn't get that close, LOL. Why? Because she's (vet, not dog) is not comfortable with her. There are 2 vets in that practice who are fearful of GSDs in general, and Megy (call name) is a rather intimidating beast, just in the "stare right through your soul" way she carries herself. No noise, no drama, no fidgeting, no posturing, nothing whatsoever inappropriate. She is dead calm. No issue, accepts the muzzle fine. Why do I allow it? Because **it makes the vets comfortable, which in turn makes her experience much better** than if they're nervous and jumpy every time she moves a muscle or looks them in the eye.

My other vet, who I much prefer and use whenever available, has never muzzled her and finds it completely asinine, even comical, that the other vet does. She absolutely ADORES Megy and has had to do a few painful things to her and did them with zero restraint except her own verbal reassurance. She tells all her employees how super this dog's temperament is, what a phenomenal mother, etc. etc. SAME DOG. Different vet.

There are MANY reasons to muzzle a dog that have nothing to do with the dog's temperament! But all dogs, regardless of aggression levels, need to be under control. A muzzle is a tool- a muzzle is NOT a substitute for PROPER HANDLING or a crutch to avoid dealing with your dog's temperament issues and your own training/handling shortcomings. My philosophy is this: if mine "needed" a muzzle, I'd have a lot of work to do. But, as a confidence booster for an uncomfortable vet, they certainly have their place.

I'm there for support for the dog and she accepts things I ask her to accept. Same as all the others. A good working relationship with your dog has your dog looking to you for direction and not firing off at the slightest provocation. I don't mean an insecure dog staring at you, climbing up on you, wanting to be anywhere but where they are, but rather a dog who reads your cues, obeys your commands and says "ok, Mom says I need to deal with this and I trust Mom so okey-dokey..this sucks but I'll endure." For this to happen, your handling must be solid, confident, and worthy of your dog's respect and trust.

Great post Jenny.

Yes, it was. Jenni is so right about OTHER PEOPLES'
(inc. THE VET's) PERCEPTION of your dog/s.

I've had one vet who, bless him, was really very wary
around Shepherds (and maybe other large breeds, for
all I know, and I never found out why !) but he always
tried his best not to show that. So even with the soppiest
specimen,, I either took the dog to him muzzled or made
damn sure he knew I had it UNDER CONTROL. But there
may have been a time or two he showed that nervousness
around someone else's windy & aggressive dog, because
he certainly got bitten on occasion.

Conversely, like Jen, I found that vets who loved & were
confident around GSDs never had any difficulties, even
around the most sullen-natured members of 'my' packs.

Just as, out on the street, people have avoided many of
the dogs I had with me as though they were going to
immediately target them for dinner; but many rushed
towards the one (nerve-bag!) bitch I owned and had to
stop short rather than pet her. Clearly there was something
misleadingly teddy-bearish about her the others didn't have !

And, Mithuna, these are the sort of things YOU cannot control.
So you are left with : make sure you CAN control your bitch.

Post like this bemuse me.

Both my dogs are trained in bitework and titled IPO.

When I take them to the vets, all I ever have to do is remind the vet that my female requests 'respect' when examining her lady parts and that the male is a big infant about the shots and his jaw PSI will rip a tire off a tractor.

There has never been an incident, my vets are calm professional and ultimate enjoy my dogs' visits. The vet/vet techs are always remarking how the enjoy working with my dogs (as opposed to a lot of GSDs) because they are well behaved and sound in the mind and we can treat them, regardless of the issue.

For the record my female does not like people. She doesn't go up to people to solicit attention, in fact she is extremely aloof about people to the point that I've had people ask if she was trained to be reserved. Likewise, the male, is reserved around people and flatly refuses to accept treats from anyone (who has asked permission from me first) who offers them. Unless it's a child, he loves children and will roll around with them for hours if allowed.

Mod deleted.

   Think this comment is more a PM chit chat, nothing to do with this thread. In saying that a lot of what has been posted is nothing to do with the subject line.

Mod delete,

  Same post as I made above, if you two want to chit chat about another forum please do so in PM's, or on that forum. Thank you ever so much