Blind search exercise comment - reposted - Page 3

its really simple centurion, goal changed, way of training changed, so ideal type of dog changed with it, not so difficult to understand

^ that is the definition of all domestic dog breeds, always.

Needs change, dogs change to match the need or they go extinct.

well stated Duke and VK .. so there remains some with honesty and truth

Maybe I am reading this differently from others, but this statement sums it up for me:

"the demonstration of temperament that the test was intended to provide is sometimes missed. In the guarding phase I see more and more where dogs are sitting still and looking at the helper, not with intensity, dominance and expectation but passive and empty of drive. "

I believe that Lance wants to see dog bring the fight to the helper, and demonstrate this in the hold/bark exercise at the beginning of the protection routine, as well as the other instances where the dog is to "guard" the helper.      Not sit in front of the helper with 'cookie barking', waiting for it's prey reward, or looking for/expecting a ball to be dropped.   

It is one thing to teach the 'mechanics' of the blind search exercise, ie. how to run the blinds, with a  ball reward, but that same dog should display an entirely different attitude/behaviour in the exercise when a helper is in the blind.    

 

The above is exactly what I’m talking about, and centurion mentioned it as well, the whole,” you can see it in their eyes thing.” But depending on your experience, you might think a dog is being intense when someone else thinks it isn’t. As a judge…someone’s feelings towards the dog or the handler could influence how intense they SAY a dog’s guarding is and therefore affect their score. If all one cares about is the performance of the dog and not the score, then go ahead and watch every single IPO routine that occurs around the world in order to pick the “strongest dogs.” The only way to truly remove a lot of the subjectivity is to remove the points and make everything pass fail, and then breeders will truly have to go watch dogs in order to breed to the “best ones” and that will just lead to more and more regionalization because most people don’t have the means or ability to go outside their area. Without points, how do people suggest we separate the dogs from one another?

points dont separate dogs, points separate trainers

Again another misguided concept :

By the term " Fight " in dog one generally means the wiilingness of the dog to endure, sustain and maintain a physical combative interaction or encounter with an opponent. So , the display of a dog barking [ or even a silent guard] has nothing to do with the combative interaction. This is why the concept of drive in IPO is so stupid it is not even ridiculous. The thought and the motive of the dog in a bark and hold is very different than a dog in the act of biting. So I could ask , do you want a dog that barks barks , or do you want a dog that can perform / do a [ specific sport /real life ] job?

My feeling and what I have seen through the years is so called macho guys , projecting onto the dog , always trying to make the dogs what they are not and also Sch /IPO what it is not. IMOp , if you want something different , then either a new protection phase has to be estalished , meaning IPO has to change into something else. Let's face the truth . The IPO protection as it stands today is not , as defined , true protection. So why the foolish effort to create the illusion that it is. And to me something unreal and sport is just as super for dogs and people too.


Koots : the statement that you wrote is not entirely true- that bark and hold lance wants does not indicate anything about the dog, What Lance writes is applicable to some dogs perhaps but not all. I can tell you with truthfulness , I have had GS that did Ring Sport , Sch. This GS if you looked at him appeaared to be passive , to be without any motivation or intensity . He looked flat ! Doing a sit or down guard he looked absolutely motionless , passive , not even a blink in his eyes. People assumed he was lacking motivation , intensity , interest etc. A helper/decoy person even challenged me once, and that's all its took , but once for him to learn differently . Doingthe dog did a silent guard . The person slightly began his move , but didn't even finish his complete movement because the dog bit him hard , and took him down . The bite was so hard that with a bite suit on,  he was bruised black and blue. Don't understimate or misjudge a well impuse controlled , calm [ not franitc or hectic ] , pensive , calculating GS as lacking drive , dominance , intesity , because , and I don't care if one is a regional IPO director, I am telling you , that you, even as a IPO training director , you are going to get hurt. BTW  many intense bark and holds , incorrectly taught and done, make for a frantic , hectic  seeminly good  working dog. Incorrectly taught also  makes for  dirty bites.  A better dog , has control of itself as much as the helper - hat is what is important  , the dog controlling the helper bark or no bark .So , I am saying it is an exercise about control  dog and handler alike , not in the aspect of fight at this point . That is my point of view of a better performing dog and is THE  most important aspect to a working dog . For whatever this is worth , that is my biased opinion as opposed to a showy dog. What good is the fight if there is no control on both parts. 

This is my point to those trying to learn. Don't assume that the bark and hold means a dog is good or not good. Don't assume that the best scoring dog is the best dog. It means exatly what has happened , it got the most points. Don't assume the outward display is always indicative to the internal state of the dog. This is so important , To me this is critical , knowing the true attributes of the dog , and it's internal state. IMOp , only a wealth of experience , not merely seeing dogs perform , not merely seeing IPO , Ring , PSA. You can see a thousand performances and still never get it [ conceptually ]. You have to experience what is going on , be somehow a part of it.

There in lies the issue centurian…everyone, everywhere, involved in dog training/sport, wants people to believe their dog is high drive, super fight, overall just the best thing ever, without really proving it and just talking about how their dog did this or that and how great it is. Without some sort of standardized testing we all have the greatest dogs and everyone else’s are shit. We can’t come up with objective standards because there will always be someone who can prove them otherwise. And I’m not saying your ideas and theories are far off. I actually do agree with a lot of what you’re saying. But the goal of all of this is to separate dogs and get objective opinions, I’ve heard from too many people that would say that their dogs are absolutely the greatest and yet when you see them work or actually work them, none of what they say is true. Now…is that them knowing more? Or is it them knowing less? Everything depends on who you ask. How do we do what’s best for the breed if we’re just expected to believe whatever the owner/handler/breeder tells us without having any kind of objective opinion to fall back on (if seeing the dog in person isn’t possible)?

And duke...absolutely, it for sure separates the trainers, yet those that get left behind are constantly fighting for a seat at the same table. And the argument is always dismissing points and claiming how amazing their own dog is and the rest of the dogs are complete crap.

Bav, without going into the yet, what if an but issues, point are given for correctness of exercise, nothing more nothing less, so it is quality of training you are looking at and what is scoring the points
so worldchampionships today is about best trainers first and foremost , and tells you something about trainability of the dog maybe but not so much more

no points are rewarded or taken for speed, intensity, dominance, hardness, environmentally stability, fight etc

I'm not sure how you can make the statement that points aren't taken/given for things like speed or intensity. A dog is definitely rewarded for being faster to do any of the exercises. Speed for sure is mentioned in obedience with the motion exercises, retrieves, and send out.

I think the other things you mentioned are just very difficult to judge objectively. Dominance/hardness is such a subjective thing. Although I'm sure like-minded people can agree to what it means and what we want to see to prove it, but to judge it on a scale is extremely subjective and difficult. I wish IPO and other sports did more to test for environmental stability, I think the world championship is doing a good thing with the vet check they're requiring, but would be great to see that expanded and see other environments than just the field. And of course fight, something that can be natural, but in recent years I've seen it trained, and I think it's been trained for decades. Expecting a judge to be able to put a number on the level of fight is also not just unfair to a competitor, but is also unfair to a judge anytime someone feels they've screwed them on a point or two because it's such a subjective opinion.