Blind search exercise comment - reposted - Page 4

Out of the IPO regulations ( in this case "C" bark and hold ) - everybody is able ( and should ) read the IPO trial regulations on http://www.fci.be/en/Utility-Dogs-58.html

 

2. Bark & Hold                                                                      10 points
 
a) One verbal command to: “Here”, “Heel”  The commands (HZ) to “here” and “finish” must be given at the same time
 
b) Execution: The dog has to actively and attentively hold the helper and continuously bark. The dog may not jump on the helper or grip him. After the dog has barked for approx. 20 seconds, the handler (HF) approaches the dog at the instruction of the judge (LR) and stops about 5 paces away from it. At the direction of the judge (LR), the handler (HF) calls his dog to the basic position. As an alternative the handler may pick up his dog commanding “heel” and putting him at the marked area. Both variables are equally evaluated.
 
After the judge releases the helper, the handler calls the helper out of the blind and has him take the designated place for the escape exercise. The dog is to sit quietly (without barking) straight and attentive in the basic position.
 
c) Evaluation: Limitations with continuous barking and determinately holding until the command (HZ) is given without the intervention of the judge (LR) or handler (HF) are evaluated accordingly. For continuous barking 5 points are awarded. If the dog displays a weak bark only 2 points, the non-barking dog that actively and attentively watches the helper 5 points are deducted. Bothering the helper such as bumping, jumping up etc. must have a 2 point deduction and 9 if the dog grips strongly.
 
If the dog grips in the blind and does not independently release, the handler (HF) is requested to approach the blind at the place marked 5 paces in front of it.  A one-time command to “here/heel” – may be given as a simultaneous command (not the command to “out”) is permitted. If the dog does not come, then the team is disqualified. If the dog does come, then the exercise is rated as a low satisfactory (- 9 points). If the dog intentionally grips other body parts (not bumping), the dog is disqualified.
 
If the dog leaves the helper, before the judge’s directs the handler (HF) to leave the middle line, the dog may be redeployed to the helper.  
 
If the dog remains with the helper, then phase C can continue, whereby the bark and hold are evaluated at a lower insufficient rating (- 9 points). If the dog does not allow himself to be redeployed or leaves the helper again, then phase C is terminated. If the dog comes towards the handler (HF) as he approaches the blind, or the dog comes back to the handler (HF) prior to receiving a verbal command a partial rating as insufficient is given.
 
Rating for “barking”
 
For continuous barking 5 points are awarded. Weak barking (no pressure, non energetic) and no continuously barking lead to a -2 point deduction. If the dog displays an attentive hold without barking, then mandatory 5 points are deducted.

 

They DO ask for drive, speed, temperament during the whole routine - always did.

I think the idea is that barking has very little “practical” use when it comes to guarding. As a helper I do understand how a silent dog is much more ready to attack at any moment than a guarding one. When silent guards were allowed in the open field, many trained them because the chance of a full grip is much higher if the helper doesn’t have to time the attack based on the dog’s bark. The grip is the “expensive” part of the exercise. But people just trained a dog to sit there and it didn’t “look” very strong. You also had people training the out-platz to weak dogs in order to keep them near the helper and not disqualify by running. Because some dogs did look stronger/more intense than others, an intense silent guard was now graded higher and a judge WILL mention a lazy silent guard in a critique in the same way they’ll mention weak/higher pitched barking. Here again the training has outpaced the test because we now know we can make a dog much more “active” in a silent guard by teaching it that the attack (or in most cases prey movement) can come at any moment so the dog looks more intense but it’s not really guarding it’s just anticipating the prey movement. This then gets valued over a dog that is truly guarding but not showing the intensity like centurian described with his dog. We do the same thing with barking and value deeper barking which is considered more defensive over higher pitched barking which is considered prey barking. Really for no other reason than human preference or the majority.

Schutzhund/later on IPO was never introduced as a "training camp for real life scenarios" - that said there doesn´t need to be any "practical use".
The trials were introduced to test the temperament and drives of the dogs, they were not introduced to prepare dogs for police or military work...
During the bark and hold the dogs are asked to "actively and attentively hold the helper and continuously bark. The dog may not jump on the helper or grip him."

The trial rules don´t ask for silent guarding, but for barking.

In case everybody would only do what his/her dog likes best, there would be no chance to compare anything.

A judge is pretty well able to see the differences in dogs and in their behavior - the higher the trial level, the better performances they want to see ( and rate ).

It´s not only about the handlers abilities - a mediocre dog will always be a mediocre dog - the top handlers try to buy the best youngsters out of this reason - the better the dog, the better the performance.
Even the best handler is not able to override temperament flaws - any knowledgeable person will see it.

That´s the main reason why people should get involved, train by themselves, and learn that there are good dogs, and that there are less suitable dogs according to the breed standard.

I can not understand why some dog people make the stupid, ignorant criticism that IPO does not train a dog for LE duty or PPD duty.

They are uneducated if they think you take a dog off the IPO field and straight into police work.

The non titling breeders use that as a way to bash IPO and justify their lazy puppy milling practices and they get away with it.

Susie , not true.
A temperament flawed GS is very capable of passing and getting a decent score in Sch / IPO. A good handler and a good trainer can mask those temp. flaes. They can look inense and full of pizzazz too. Aside from the rules .. most having done Sch and that is what it should be called because that what IPO really is , know the rules.

The point being made is that even though a canine may act with intense barking and so forth , like it has a good bark and hold , that may not be the best dog or even a good dog .

I relate this story often : A young police officer ,starting as a K9 officer , worked dogs with me. He was looking on a computer for a police canine and called me to see this fantastic GS doing a bark and hold routine. Wow , he said look at that dog. I said to him , don't even think of that GS , he is not that good and the work you see is not the dog for you .
Yes the dog looked full of what you folks keep wanting to say , drive , I say motivation because I knew what this dog was thinking , [ a drive tells you limmited of information , and that information that you need to know to understand the dog- another subject ]. The dog looked highly highly intense . That is to say very very high in aggression . He got my canine behaviorist to also look and at first he said ,not bad . Then I said replay this video , and at a specific split second I stated , you see that . They said replay the video . On the second time they said yes now we see what you have just pointed out to us. Just a 2 second moment in an otherwise normal looking bark and hold of a dog with high motivation , intensity and high aggression made my friend's change their minds. A seemingly great bark /hold,that is all it took to change the young officer's mind about this dog being good for him.

BW- made a good point in the commenting about a silent guard. Yes even within a silent guard, things about a canine can be masked , not just a bark and hold !

So as one alluded to back in the thread , we have to take a look at a canine in the totality . For example, the dog may look a little less in intensity , but that dog may the better dog to problem solve, to have self control , to be quicker to obey you ,to be more agile ,to be better in recovery or handling environmental inflences that are not in the 'routine' of IPO . No one routine is t he end all of acessing a dog . To have fun in sport and life YES**.

There have been many many good comments on this thread. An enjoyable conversation for many to think about and learn from if novices. MY thanks to you all .
Centurain

Nobody with an education looks at a dog doing a segment of an IPO exercise and bases a selection for anything on that.

Your Leo friend sounds like an incompetent as far as dog selection. That is not an IPO problem.

Did you even read my post?
IPO is not training a dog to become a k9 - it´s the attempt of breed enthusiasts to compare the drives and temperaments of dogs...and some people do have fun to be point hunters.

Sure you may be able to find "better" tests - sure you may be able to point out single traits not tested...

Every country is free to train and test their own stock, I am German, so I grew up with IPO, others grew up with Mondio, ZVV, KNPV, whatever - it doesn´t matter - at the end it´s about comparison, selection, knowledge.

As soon as you don´t test at all, and are not willing to compare your dogs to others, you try to avoid judgement. Why exhibit a dog with the danger of fail in case there is no need to?
No difference within health screening ( my dog is moving well, no need for HD/ED x-rays ) or showing ( my dog is beautiful, no reason to check the teeth, testicles, earset, or seize )...

^ I believe it to be wilful ignorance to avoid accountability to make an easy buck.

...........sometimes a more intense B & H is born in some insecurity..........

...........a highly dominant and confident dog may not be impressed enough to reach deep down..............

...........the judge gives the score, the helper can give you insight.........................

................and only a fools will believe in tell tales and hearsay.......................