Modern day "Hip Improver" dogs - Page 1

Pedigree Database

 

by Pirschgang on 03 October 2020 - 17:10

Just curious what the go-to hip improver dog is these days. I'm sure we all know Aly vom Vordersteinwald is most famous hip improver, but I'm curious if there's a dog now that's the "new" Aly, so to speak.

by ValK on 03 October 2020 - 18:10

any pair, with strong physical structure, good health, agility and obvious potency to pass this characteristics to offspring is a hip improvers.
for that dogs not need to be famous and highly ranked in any applicable practical venues.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 04 October 2020 - 03:10

For once, ValK, I completely agree with you.

by Pirschgang on 06 October 2020 - 14:10

Thanks for the replies, but I wasn't really looking for abstract answers.

jdiogoc

by jdiogoc on 06 October 2020 - 14:10

I agree Pirschgang, this is not a topic where you want abstract, feel-good replies. To answer your question, SV in Germany has an online database which you can consult (SV-DoXs) where you can find the HD breeding value for every dog. For Aly, which you mentioned, it's 68 which is a very low value (very good because the lower the better). You can buy the "Genetics" package and there you can sort the whole database by HD-breeding value. Hercules vom Grossen Ex and Knox vom Tollhaus are two often used males with a breeding value lower than 70. For the "show line" you have at least Okky vom Team Agrigento.

However, take all of this with a grain of salt. I remember seeing a dog with 30 progeny normal/normal and after one year he had 2 dysplastic sons, rocketing his lower than 70 HD-ZW to 80 something... Maybe all GSD are carriers at this point and environmental prevention is the only solution...? A discussion for another day :)

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 06 October 2020 - 15:10

The ZW is only as good as how many dogs have actually been xrayed and rated. You can keep the ZW artificially low by simply not sending the xrays in if they are bad.

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 07 October 2020 - 01:10

However, take all of this with a grain of salt. I remember seeing a dog with 30 progeny normal/normal and after one year he had 2 dysplastic sons, rocketing his lower than 70 HD-ZW to 80 something..

Tell me about it! My older female was a complete outcross genetically, with 5 generations of good hips on both sides of the pedigree. She x-rayed as mildly dysplastic in one hip at 2 years of age. It was heartbreaking!  


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 07 October 2020 - 03:10

Mine, and I'm sure ValK's, replies were hardly "abstract, feelgood" statements; rather, they come from the long-term experience that HD can, as Sunsilver examples, 'come out of nowhere', despite the best efforts to NOT produce it, through careful selection of tested and wherever possible use of prepotent breeding stock. Also, Pirschgang, you need to take into account the value to any mating - even using 'the' "HD improver" dog of the moment - of the 50% from whichever partner you choose for that dog.

And, as BE points out, it can also be "fiddled"...

Even jdiogoc has to admit HD is hardly a matter for any certainty.


jdiogoc

by jdiogoc on 07 October 2020 - 06:10

The ZW is only as good as how many dogs have actually been xrayed and rated. You can keep the ZW artificially low by simply not sending the xrays in if they are bad.

Yes, this is true, but that's why I only mentioned dogs with a lot of progeny all over the world since that increases chances of someone sending a "bad" score (bear in mind that even an "a2" will be bad for these very low ZW dogs),

Hundmutter I hope you didn't take the abstract, feel-good comment as an insult, it really wasn't one and I didn't mean to disrespect anyone. And yes, I agree it hardly is a matter for any certainty

 

 


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 07 October 2020 - 09:10

No, no insult felt or offence taken. Just clarifying I did not wish to appear dismissive of the whole issue; I too have owned a dog with a very high hip total - despite, luckily, being extremely well muscled and the fact she never had any problems with pain or walking (true she didn't jump much) during her long life, until close to the end. [She then went off her back legs in very similar style to DM, rather than HD.] Her mother and her mothers' ancestors all had good hip records; her father the same, and he only had about two highly displastic offspring, out of many better than average results in tested pups. And yet ...

I do not think we will ever breed HD 'out' of the GSD. I think the genetic expression is too ingrained and too complicated.There are also outstanding environmental questions re cause. I do however think we should do all in our breeding power to reduce the incidence of producing future cases. Irresponsible not too; the dogs who are SO good and have so much to offer that get used, despite a higher than 'breed mean' score, or no A stamp etc, are very few and far between; and that choice is best left to experienced expert breeders, not risked by amateurs and BYB. I think therein lies the danger in promoting any single stud dogs as "improvers" for hips. The route should lie in testing and bringing together 'families' of dogs who have consistently good hip records over a long period, on both sire & dam's sides - but being prepared to recognise that, even then, there are no 100% guarantees HD will not sometimes turn up.





 


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