!! Warning !! Beware of scamers - Page 2

I have used McAfee and ZoneAlarm, and found them both rather cumbersome. I tried Zonealarm with 3 different OSs and all were much slower with it installed. I now use Norton anti-virus AND firewall, which seems to stop most "nasties", including pop-ups. It is really scary if you look at the alert log and see how many "intrusions" they reckon they have blocked!!! BUT it is VITAL to keep it all up to date! BTW, if your email program is set up to activate and go online at startup, it is possible that an email carrying a virus may skip in before your anti-virus program is fully activated... What kind of sicko thinks that's funny? And Win XP has a "system restore" function that saves a virus when you or your anti-virus software try to delete it, just in case you've deleted it by accident. You have to disable it, delete the virus and then reactivate it again. What a pain!!! But at least in the meantime the nasty is quarantined so it can't affect anything.

The above mentioned scheme is quite common and can originate right within the US. In once case known to me the Bank of America would not recognize a check drawn from their own bank (different branch) as fake. The teller checked in teh computer if the account was covered for the amount, then cashed the check. The teller was advised at the time that the check might be fraudulant and insisted it was ok. Several weeks later the bank wanted to claim the amount back because the holder of the account had never issued that particular check. This scheme comes in many different flavours. If someone needs money sent somewhere they can certainly make their own arrangements. If they can send a check to me, they can send a check to where ever. Or do the WU wire themselves. That should always raise an eyebrow or two. PayPal is not a save method of payment either. You might want to read the small print again! PayPal transactions can be cancelled or reversed by the paying party and there is nothing the receiving party can do about it. PayPal does not guarantee payment! The same applies when accepting credit card. Any credit card transaction can be cancelled or reversed. Usually you need a valid reason so that the card company will reverse the charges, such as not having received the product. The card companies don't necessarily check the validity of such claims and just process it. Plus card companies from other countries may be more lax in that regard. So beware. US cashiers checks take about 25 business days outside of the US to clear. Even then, a US cashiers check can be cancelled up to 6 months after date of issue! Even after it has been cashed. So even if everything seems to have gone through ok, the transaction can be reversed. This is not a secure form of payment, even if the check itself is not fraudulent. US money orders also need several weeks to clear outside the US. They too can be cancelled. There is a lot of fraud involving fake checks, cashiers checks, bank drafts, money orders. I won't accept any as a matter of principle. Western Union, which is very expensive, or direct bank to bank wire transfer are the only two options that I would consider pretty much reliable and safe. With Western Union the funds can be stopped before they have been picked up. Once they have been picked up the funds are safe. With a bank to bank wire the money can theoretically still be stopped while it is en-route. I have been trough one attempt to have a bank to bank wire reversed on me but luckily the funds were deposited before the return was processed. Once the funds have been deposited into the recipients account it is usually untouchable. To be sure, you need to check on your banks policies on that. I always ask for complete name, shipping address and phone number before handing out wiring instructions. I also prefer a quick personal call to get a feeling for who I am dealing with. If there is any reluctance to send contact infos to me or talk to me in person, chances are this person is not for real or up to something I'd rather not deal with...

I have also sent dogs all over the world, one to Kobe, Japan, quite a few to Canada over the years and also to Germany. One thing I have always kept as policy. Whether they are coming in person or I have to ship the puppy/adult. I do not accept credit cards, nor Paypal, or any other kind of eletronic payment. If the client writes a personal check/money order in person, registration papers are not released until that check has cleared the bank. When I have to ship, the registration papers are not sent with the dog. My sales contract is sent first, signed and returned with payment for both shipping and purchase price for the puppy. The payment must first clear my bank, then I will make arrangements to ship. If there is an overage that I charged for shipping, I will refund when I send the registration papers to the client. (even wrote a personal check once to refund extra and sent with the puppy) But one thing I wanted to emphasize, if the client refuses to pay the shipping or that check bounces, the shipper is then responsible for shipping costs and the airline will be knocking on your door with their hand out. That's why I get the shipping amount up front. I have never had this happen to me, but it can and has. But as a policy and it's on my website, I won't accept credit cards, Paypal or any other kind of electronic payment for a puppy. This is just my own personal opinion, and it won't change, but I feel it cheapens the meaning of a living being. I worked hard to raise that puppy, I want the buyer to work a little to get that puppy. Some things have been made too easy. And it also leaves the door wide open for fraud, which too many anymore these days have the lack of morals to take advantage of. Liz :o)

Whilst some of you offered good alternatives to protect the seler, I would like to offer my opinion from the buyer's perpective. As a buyer, I am equally concern if the same dog will be sent to me, if at all, after the money has been sent to the seller. Is there a safe and fair method such that both parties (seller and buyer) are protected? short of issuing a letter of credit :o) Laris

Laris, I think that the best way is to know who you're dealing with, and wire transfer the money. I only got one of these Nigerian things, and told the inquirer that I had no way to monitor the dog according to my contract and therefore would not sell a dog to Nigeria. This was a dog who was being sold for a token fee, who had special needs!

Laris, The best thing to do is to check their references, if they are unable to provide valid references, you set a number that is acceptable for your satisfaction, includings vets, training clubs etc..then you don't buy. There are many, this is very true with sellers too that are out to get your money, and it is up to you as the buyer to feel comfortable with your breeder too and that means doing your homework. The extra effort is worth the end result Liz :o)

Kerry and Liz, agree with your comments about knowing who you deal with and checking their references. My question was relating to a financial solution that is fair to both buyer and seller, as a final protection for both parties after all the checks? Laris

If a dog has been advertised or offered for sale and another dog is sent instead, then that is fraud. There is no other way to put it. You should always receive what you paid for, not a sibling, a cousin or a look-alike. It is very simple to check which dog has been sent if it comes from Germany because all pups are tattooed and thereby are easy to identify. As pups and later as adults as well. When buying a dog you must rely on the accuracy of description provided by the seller. But that still is subject to personal interpretation. And what will be considered good in one place, may not be considered the same in a different country. With adults their accomplishemts often speak for their quality and are easily verified. With pups or young adults you never really quite know what you are getting anyways, and even the best breeders have made errors in judgements and bought some pups back that they thought at the time were not so great (ie Zamp Wienerau). Or pups that were thought to be pick of the litter did not grow up to fulfill the expectations placed in them. That is all part of dealing with dogs. Nothing is for certain. If you want a sure thing, buy the Sieger dog and only show him under the same judge. If in doubt the only way that you can be absolutely sure that the dog you want to purchase is both the dog that has been offered, and is also a dog that will match your personal wishlist, then you must hop on a plane and check the dog out in person. Then pay cash when you like what you see and go home with your dog travelling as excess baggage. That is the only fool-proof method for the buyer. If you are dealing with a reliable person selling the dog this should not be necessary though. This is a very small community and bad seeds get exposed quickly and usually don't last.

"If in doubt the only way that you can be absolutely sure that the dog you want to purchase is both the dog that has been offered, and is also a dog that will match your personal wishlist, then you must hop on a plane and check the dog out in person. Then pay cash when you like what you see and go home with your dog travelling as excess baggage. That is the only fool-proof method for the buyer." So D.H., what you are telling me is that if all of my email correspondence indicates that I made the deal with a German Broker to buy Jasper and I send the money to the designated bank and I pay all the requested fees and I go to the airport and I find Jake in the crate that I have been a victim of FRAUD? Not everyone is able to just jump a flight to Germany to check out and pick up their dog. Not everyone is able to pay the extra fee for the US Broker to go between. There NEEDS to be somewhere to go to expose the "BANDITS". I think that the SV needs to help to stop the ripe off artists. They should have a place to complain about possible fradulent dealings. This is a BIG MONEY MARKET and there is definitely a need for Consumer/Buyer Protection. Does anyone know of a SV contact that would investigate FRAUDULENT deals?

Dealing directly with the Kennel must be better than deaking with any Broker, surely!