Origin of Arched Back - Page 12

angles are clearly laid out in the standard. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/structure_information/1.html one's personal preferences are just that, personal preference.

The inside angle for the stifle in this image is 135 degrees--not 120 degrees as previously given.

Unfortunately, as has been pointed out elsewhere, these angles are more than a bit imaginary. For example, the shoulder blade and upper arm do not quite attach as indicated in this drawing. And it's important to be consistent in how the lines are drawn--through the center of the joints? How do you figure that from a photograph?



Fred Lanting talks about it here: http://www.dogstuff.info/angles_front_and_rear.html

Christine

Ah, good link Cristine.  I agree with Fred lanting in that extreme GSD rear angulation can be as acute as 95 degrees and I have also measured the same 95 degrees in a GSD drawing in Rachel Page Elliot's book.  Her drawings, like Lantings, are taken from radiograph images, not estimated drawn lines.

Also Lanting's hind angles are evaluated with a croup angle of 35 degrees off the horizontal.  The photo of Pyke shows a croup angle of ~40 degrees and he is nowhere near as extreme as the typical winning showline dog of today that has the contributing factor of crouching hindquarters to further decrease the stifle angle.

Wildmoor, this what increases the chances of joint deformity and puts extra stain and wear & tear on joints, and the reason why the showline GSD no longer lives an active life into old age.  It's certainly not a return to more normal construction, as can be seen in the photo posted by myret.

Great thread smiley :)

Wildmoor, this what increases the chances of joint deformity and puts extra stain and wear & tear on joints, and the reason why the showline GSD no longer lives an active life into old age.

Pod

Will you please re-explain this, rephrase it and state again in different words/measures/angles  what increases the chances of joint deformity 
I did not follow that point and I want to know what is exactly meant by that. By the way I am serious and I want to understand your point correctly please.

Ibrahim

Sorry Ibrahim, I could have written that better.  

There is good evidence to suggest that extreme conformation, such as that of the showline GSD, causes increased incidence of osteoarthritis.  A good article here that will explain better than I ever could - http://www.meulenbrock.com.br/en/sloping.html

Also the increased strain on soft tissue, the muscles, tendons, ligament, which naturally weaken with old age, have extra strain because of the acute angles of the hindquarters, possibly the forequarters too.  These angles are not inherited indiviually for each joint, they come as a package so these dogs also have increased anlges all over including the pasterns, which is one joint that seems to be particularly prone to weakening in the GSD.  The concertina effect on joint angles as the soft tissue weakens with age, is one which I'm sure many GSD owners are familiar with.

Thanks Pod for the explanation, that article is very interesting indeed, the connection between low croup and limited extension in the hock joint is new to me.

Thanks again, Ibrahim

There are more articles to read on the site of above link.

Thanks, Abby!!  It has been a really fascinating discussion for me as well!!!

Link posted by SitasMom on siegers: 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/siegershow_winners.html

I've now got a webpage showing that article complete with the graphics and more from the same vet below - 

http://www.gsdinfo.co.uk/General%20Info/Sloping%20topline.%20Is%20it%20detrimental.htm

"

CHD is prevelent in almost all breeds and must be seen as a result of breeding programmes selected to accentuate characteristics that are desirable for various breed standards."
 

http://www.mikeguilliard.co.uk/id14.html


I've also noticed a rather serious flaw in the drawing from Fred Lanting's site, reproduced on Blackthorn's post.  The drawing of the forhand assembly shows the upper arm to be shorter than the shoulder blade, but in fact it isn't.  The upper arm is ~15% longer than the shoulder blade, and this applies to all dogs, not just the GSD.  This particular drawing is obviously not taken from radiograph and is probably from old text where the forehand of the dog was thought to be very similar to that of the horse, which actually does have a shorter upper arm.

The angles though, I agree with.  What seems to be the holy grail of the GSD showring - the 45 degree layback and 90 degree right angle is just another take on the pursuit of the extreme, that actually has no function other than pleasing the eye of the judge.  The increased braking force and all other detrimental effects of extreme angulation, and arched/roached back is contributing to orthopaedic problems of the GSD.

Reply from Fred Lanting:   Sorry to jump in so late, but I usually don't "do" chat lists etc unless someone points (or shoves) me into one, tyhinking I may be able to help. The article on angulations front and rear that one person ("pod") referred to, is available on some websites such as http://vonjagenstadt.com/articles.html  -(or)- siriusdog.com/sphider/search.php?query=lanting&search=1  -(or)- www.FredLanting.org , but also in my book, "The Total German Shepherd Dog".  The excessively curved topline began in the era (1970s & 80s) when the Martin brothers ruled the SV (including what dogs won the Sieger shows) and heavily influenced the look of the breed all over the world. If I knew how to attach a photo, I'd show you the extreme to which this trend reached in Australia and elsewhere. But if anyone wants a copy, let me know how to do that and I'll post again. Tell me at Mr.GSD @netscape.com.   Fred
 

Quote recent post from "pod" (while I was working on one of my own): He (she?) said, "a rather serious flaw in the drawing from Fred Lanting's site, reproduced on Blackthorn's post."   Well stated, pod. The drawing was made by tracing over the photo, not from a (Rachel Paige Elliot-type)radiograph. However, she and I (and Curtis Brown) have radiographed good-excellent standing dogs, and the ANGLES are indeed as represented in our published works, if not the length of the humerus (in mine).      Fred
   p.s. the topline has improved a little from the late `70s, but is still not back to normal, nor have sloppy hocks been fixed. These two problems have grown to be so imbedded in the genotype that there are relatively few dogs to choose from that have correct structure there, without getting even worse problems elsewhere.