People are screwing the breed! Zara von der Zenteiche VA with ruined hips? - Page 14

@ eve127

There are two things which need to be distinguished.

1. Specific allegations of cheating or dishonesty made against an individual (as Jantie has made against the owner of Zara von der Zenteiche).
2. General allegations of 'corruption' made against an organisation or country.

Insofar as the first is concerned Jantie has produced no evidence of his allegations or, at least, none that would carry any weight with any fair minded person.

You say about that,
'However, I know the story Jantie is talking about quite well. To me he is not a liar. Everyone has to decide for himself/herself.'

Well, where is YOUR evidence? Frankly, I don't care whether you produce it or whether Jantie produces it. WHERE is the evidence of cheating or dishonesty which is made against the owner of Zara von der Zenteiche? I have not seen any and nor has anyone else on this board.

David Payne has given a credible explanation of the circumstances. That account has not been refuted by any evidence produced by Jantie. Is it going to be refuted by any evidence put forward by you? If it is then let us see what that evidence is. If you have no such evidence then your opinion on the matter doesn't really amount to a heap of beans.

As you have reasonably said, 'accusations without proper evidence are nonsense'. Well, where is the proper evidence in this case?

@ eve127

Now we come to the second category of allegations (which is not really what this thread is about because the allegations made by Jantie against the owner of Zara von der Zenteiche were very specific.

The second category is general allegations of 'corruption' made against an organisation or country.

You say, for example, 'The German Show Dog business has become way too corrupt over the last few years. We all can see that. You can go and see the evidence. It is obvious. I've been to far too many shows and seen the better dogs being put behind those who have the reputation. Put behind those who are judge's dogs. I've seen crippels on top.'

It is very difficult to deal with this type of generalised allegation because it is so hard to pin down with facts. I travel to Germany a lot. You obviously go there yourself. Would you say it was a 'corrupt' country? You only have to ask the question in order to burst out laughing. Every index of corruption which exists will tell you that the Nordic countries and Germany are amongst the least corrupt in the world. Germany is consistently rated less corrupt than the UK and US. (For the record the countries rated most corrupt out of 178 are countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Myanmar and Somalia).

Then, Germany is the second largest exporter in the world. How does it do this? Is it because its labour costs undercut those of the rest of the world? No, it is because the quality and reliability of German products are world renowned. Germans care about the quality of their product. Do they care any less about the quality of the German Shepherd Dog than they do about the quality of their cars? I very much doubt it. Everywhere I go in Germany I see schutzhund clubs in the smallest of villages. When I go to the Siegerschau do I see a show like that anywhere else in the world? No.

Let us remind ourselves. In order to qualify for pink papers in Germany the dog must be out of parents which (a) have been DNA tested, (b) have satisfactory hip and elbow scores, (c) have passed the AD test, (d) have achieved a show grade of at least 'G', (e) have at least a SchH 1 title and (f) have a Korung. When I see other countries adopt these standards then I would be more sympathetic to people from those other countries bleating about 'corruption' in Germany.

Now, am I surprised that dogs owned or bred by judges tend to do better than dogs which are not owned or bred by judges? Well, no. Would I (and who cares for my opinion on this because I am certainly not a judge) say that the best dog always wins? Well, no, I wouldn't. But does that mean that the whole German system is 'corrupt'? Of course it doesn't. Criticism like that is focussing on the warts rather than looking at the whole person.

Hi Eve!
THIS is ridiculous.
THIS is what lawyers do!
They play with words, twist everything upside down,
ALLTHOUGH THEY DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!!

Eve, you have described very well, what is going on in the GSD-show-world and I thank you for being brave enough to voice this opinion on Pedigreedatabase, where the world comes to see what is going on in Germany, the motherland of the GSD.
The corruption, the fraud, the manipulation is obvious to the insiders.
Peterlee obviously has got no clue whatsoever, he is a divorce-sollicitor who thought it would be a good idea to disturb the thread with BS and take our statements apart, wordwise that is, for the context is not his cup of tea.

He doesn't know that hip and elbow scores can and have been manipulated,
other dogs than the one on the papers have passed the AD test,
(THEY EVEN OFFER OTHER DOGS DURING THE SIEGER FOR THE COURAGE TEST!! REMEMBER ERIK VON DER EHRENFESTE!!).
He doesn't know show grades are given away as fits best, see Hammer Protokoll, SV-judges are the ones promoting or destructing a dogs' show- and/or studcarreer.
We don't want to go into the SchH titles (SOLD ON HIGHWAY PARKING LOTS!!!) and Koerungen.
Its all PAPERWORK, and people paying the price will get the PINK PAPERS readily stamped in their mailbox without their dogs having left the premises!!

We will be reporting more scam and fraud in the gsd-world.
And how solid the proof may be, you will always find a sollicitor somewhere in the country willing to play around for ages and pages with nothing but WORDS.

Actually, Jantie, we are all still waiting for proof of the allegations of cheating and dishonesty you have made against the owner of Zara von der Zenteiche. Are you going to ever produce any proof???

David Payne has called you a liar to your face. Why don't you sue him? No, I didn't think so.

hi peterlee:

I have evidence for myself, I don't want to give it to anybody in public. I'm not the world's savior and I know that I won't change anything. This is why I admire Jantie and his well-presented studies.
Have you ever read his studies in which he gives concrete numbers etc???
Stud dogs giving stud service before the age of 24 months?????
I myself had a bitch and we went to a stud dog before he was aged 24 months. Sorry, Jantie I have to admit this here.

quote: Well, no. Would I (and who cares for my opinion on this because I am certainly not a judge) say that the best dog always wins? Well, no, I wouldn't. But does that mean that the whole German system is 'corrupt'? Of course it doesn't.

I did not say that the German system was corrupt but that the show dog business has gotten
tocorrupt. That makes a difference :-)

quote: You say about that,
'However, I know the story Jantie is talking about quite well. To me he is not a liar. Everyone has to decide for himself/herself.'

Well, where is YOUR evidence?


I have evidence for myself, not for you, I'm sorry. What is obvious to be might be unreal for you.
Perceptions differ. And how could Jantie give us final evidence if the dog we are talking about won' t be x-rayed again?

And Peterlee, I value your opinion, but I have seen horrible things with my own eyes.
Do you think a dog has a higher value than a quality car? No, not for all people.
If a dog is pretty and would have the chance to rung among the very best - know what we do with 'em if their character is too weak and they won't bite? We make them bite with electric collars.
And if this doesn't work mabey there's still the chance to do a parking lot test and have them titled there.

@Jantie: quote (THEY EVEN OFFER OTHER DOGS DURING THE SIEGER FOR THE COURAGE TEST!! REMEMBER ERIK VON DER EHRENFESTE!!)

Wow, havn't heard that one! Still the chance to learn something here :-))))))

Please take a look at Twin aus dem Aurum Zwinger Schutzdienst Nürnberg 2010.
I'm not related to the owner or anything!!!!!
You can google it and watch the video on youtube. Check it out I'd be very curious about your comment! This dog gets TSB ungenügend. I would have given : vorhanden
I've seen worse and worse and worse ones which get: ausgeprägt
HOW COME???????????

(you don't have to anser to this question :-))))))))))))))

Oh, come on, Jantie's 'studies'!  Excuse me while I fall about laughing.

On the basis of the evidence he has relied upon here to make allegations of cheating and dishonesty can anyone really think that Jantie can approach any evidence dispassionately? He has an axe to grind and that informs everything he does. Even if he now had a valid point to make about anything it would be hard to take his credibility seriously.

Eve, you say,
'I have evidence for myself, not for you, I'm sorry.'

Well, that doesn't amount to a heap of beans, does it? That is Jantie's type of 'evidence'. 'Full story to follow', blah, blah, blah

If your name was being trashed I would expect you to insist on seeing the evidence for the allegations. The owner of Zara deserves no less. This is, of course, exactly what I thought. No evidence about Zara but different allegations about something else in the hope of distracting attention from the alleged 'ruined hips' of Zara for which NO evidence has been produced.

I'm sorry,I thought you were a polite guy. Seems that I was wrong.
Seems that this discussion is a waste of time. I won't answer no more.
Seems that you havn't even read through the things I wrote.





@Jantie: However, still looking forward to your reply! :-)

I am most grateful Eve for elaborating your insider knowledge and your courage (guts) to share it with the world!

(I will not hold anything against you, don't be afraid. I am not after the small hobbybreeders doing their utmost best to survive in this circus BIG BUSINESS breeders have created. They're the ones I'm after!)

I'm glad I could bring another fraud to your attention. It was a huge fraud (google for details) and in the end, the ones disclosing the facts were the ones who suffered most!
The SV has a longtime history of sweeping things under the carpet and protecting their friends/partners in crime!

To Peterlee: do you still live in the Ice Age or what?
THIS is 2010, the time of multimedia and the Internet. I couldn't care less if someone would call me a liar on an international public discussionboard. I'm not in the least offended.
Es juckt mich nicht im geringsten! (It's no skin off my nose!) It really leaves me cold.
Knowing the source of the insult even makes me smile!
We all have our neighbourhood bullies!

I will check the courage tests mentioned later today, and maybe write you afterwards. Give me some time, got lots to do! But I always come back.

@jantie: mich juckt es auch nicht im Geringsten, sollen sie doch alle glauben was sie wollen, diese armen
                gutgläubigen Menschen, die wohl eher Schafen ähneln .... Wo einer hinläuft, rennen die anderen
               auch hin. Hauptsache, die heile Welt bricht nicht zusammen :-)))))

Naja................when will you publish this new information you're talking about????