Where are Old style lines in America still available? - Page 27

Yes, he was:

Molly......sorry, Like I said...he was before my time!! hahaha  I don't remember ever seeing a sable growing up. But, that could just be me!!! :-)

Wait.....I could have sworn that I saw a black tan dog as Rin Tin Tin. hmmm.. I wonder what image I am thinking of then? 


Sun...any comment on Defense drive? Did you find the older dogs had more of it than you see today?

 

I found it.....

Smiley, back in the '60s, when Kohler wrote his famous book on Guard Dog Training, all protection dogs were worked in defense drive. The dog was tied up, which made it fear for its life, and pushed it over into defense.

Then, a kinder, gentler era came in with treats and clickers, and the schutzhund crowd discovered reward-based training. It was easier, for handlers to learn and less traumatic and stressful for the dog (to put it mildy!) However, it required the dog look at the sleeve as a toy, so dogs without play/prey drive did not respond well to this method.

Because teaching schutzhund to a dog that was in play/prey mode was much easier than the old methods, where frankly, someone was often in danger of getting bitten, because the dog's focus was on the helper, not the sleeve, schutzhund and IPO flourished as a sport, and became separate from protection, where handlers still wanted the dog have some defense drive. Sport handlers began specifically selecting for more and more ball/prey drive, and now we have most schutzhund dogs bred specifically FOR that trait.

Is this a good thing for the breed? Frankly, no, I don't think so. My rescue dog has ZERO suspicion of strangers, but her prey drive is so over the top, she'd likely kill a small dog or cat without blinking an eye.

Sun, thank you very much! That makes sense. So, maybe that is what Paul means when he says a dog that will really bite versus a dog that focuses on and requires a sleeve….

Yeah, my girl is more play/prey as well. In fact, her drive is so strong that I was going to get her titled in lure coursing as she will run down anything that moves (she doesn't kill it though). So, does defense drive mean "civil"?

Joan, just wanted to say, I really like what you said about looking for dogs that are still working on farms. This is the same conclusion I've come to, and it does NOT mean a dog can't be versatile.

Remember that story Manfred Heyne told about taking his herding dog to a schutzhund club, and everyone laughing at this old guy in his traditional herder's coat and hat?

The helper came out, and Manfred let his dog, who had NEVER done this before, go....

He knocked the helper flat on his ass! 

The herding dog is meant to be a natural protector, both to the flock and to his master. That's why they are so good with kids. THAT'S WHY THEY MAKE GOOD MEDICAL SERVICE DOGS!!

There's a reason why we make jokes about 'TImmy in the well" (the old Lassie TV series.) The herding dog was EXPECTED to tell the shepherd if a sheep was in trouble. There's no difference between a dog with these instincts knowing when a sheep is sick and knowing when their human isn't well. An e-friend of mine has a Shiloh shepherd service dog, and when she goes to the doctor, she has to constantly keep her dog from alerting to ALL the sick humans in the office. "None of your business, Mali!" she tells her, and Mali actually seems to pout!  And when Sherri had to undergo a painful procedure, Mali broke her down-stay, put herself between Sherri and the nurse, and calmly but insistently pushed the nurse away from the exam table. I have NO doubt she'd also protect Sherri if someone meant intentional harm to her.

So, I'll get off my soapbox now (Timmy's down the well again...)  but I 100% think you are right!

 

I third that, Sun!!!

I also discovered that herding dogs were versatile, smart dogs! In fact, I was the one who started the HGH thread on here awhille ago! However, the last Heyne dog left that I know of and tracked down is no longer able to breed with no frozen.

But, that farm dog has to be a smart, healthy, versatile, utility dog that can protect and be extremely biddable.......

Hired dog.....Hmmm. I guess it would mean that a dog is very protective and also if challenged, physically, will bite. They probably don't need a sleeve or anything to focus on like Sun said as it is not really a game. I am guessing a dog with Defense drive would be very vocal about protecting their home and people and able to back it up. But, just because a dog is vocal and will bite might not necessarily mean that dog is working in defense. Maybe that just means they are nuts!! So, there may not be a correlation. Like most defense dogs will bark and bite but not all dogs who bark or bite will be working in defense? I don't know. 

Does defense also mean that their protectiveness is more important than the ability to decipher situations? For example, are they so geared towards protecting their property that if a neighborhood kid comes into the yard chasing a ball they will attack the child (assuming no adult is around and they are left to their own devices)? Can there be a balance?

Can you please tell me what the real definition is or what your version of defense drive is?

Are defense and civil the same thing?

Thanks,
Sarah

BTW, did someone post something on here recently about the evolution of dogs as pets in the last 100 years? They said in the 'old days' people didn't have a dog unless it served a purpose such as herding, keeping vermin in check, or hunting. Only the very wealthy (royalty) had dogs that were just pets, and even they were often hunting dogs. (The 'sleeve' dogs of the Chinese emperors are one of the few exceptions.)  Then, due to the industrial revolution, a wealthy middle class arose, and they could afford to keep a dog just as a pet. This, of course, was the beginning of the downfall of the working dog.

If anyone knows the article I am referring to, I'd really like a link. I am kicking myself for not bookmarking it when I first found it!