color genetics - Page 7

Wow.

UberLand you are comparing Apples to Oranges here and REALLY trying to stretch it.

Horses and Dog are two totally seperate animals with two totally seperate genomes. In any eukaryote, the expression of a single gene will normally contribute to more than one phenotype in the organism. Likewise, a single phenotype in an organism is normally affected by a relatively complex combination of multiple genes being expressed and interacting.  You have to remember, "gene expression" is the term given for the transcription and translation of DNA sequences that result in the production of proteins and enzymes. It is these proteins and enzymes that turn around and perform the function that is dictated by their structure. Most proteins and enzymes have more than one function, thus, they effect more than one facet of the animal overall.

It is believed that the color ITSELF is not the cause of the associated health problems. Its believed that the gene expressions that result in the diluted coat color/patterns also has an effect on particular health functions of the animal.  This is why the color is considered a defect.  Its a defect by association so to speak.  A defect nonetheless though.

This effect, of course, will differ between each breed of dog.  Not to mention the difference in the effect on A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SPECIES WITH A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EVOLUTIONARY HISTORY.

I think Prager said it best with the comment above...... "wow".  

Certain breeders will try to justify to no end their choice to breed dogs with little regard for the standard. It's a waste of time trying to point this out to them because their minds are already made. I just hope that buyers aren't suckered into the BS. Uberland, enjoy your blue dogs moron.

 for the moron comment "Moron", I don't have blues.  I don't have livers either, just carriers.  I don't understand why in most of your posts felloffer, that you must resort to name calling and trying to belittle people.  that makes you a very small person.

as for the apple and orange comment,  I guess it is ok for Prager to justify his arguement with studies done on gerbils, mice and rats, but I cant include the discussion that is exactly the same arguement with horses?  I believe it was also Prager who wanted to discuss problems with dilute horses on this or another thread.

I am not the one not willing to budge on my ideas.  its other people who just can't consider it.  I know too many people who have these non-standard colors as breeding dogs and as pets,  and I have never seen or heard of any problem associated with these dogs besides some kennels which refuse to cull their lines with CDA in them.

you find me a study with concrete facts that can be proven, then I will listen.  and the first hiccup I have from my dogs, they will be removed from breeding.  same as I would a blk/red (infact all the dogs I've had to cull have been blk/reds, sables and blacks from german lines)

I'm passionate about the breed and very small, hence my attitude towards some. Many here just can't leave the breed alone, they feel the need to re-invent the wheel.

IMO if your dog(s) carries the gene, it's your responsibility to make sure you find breeding partners that don't carry. I retract my "moron" statement, I thought you mentioned owning a blue dog in another thread. The GSD has a standard that should be held in the highest regard by breeders and it shouldn't be danced around with semantics. 

I see you buy and import titled czech dogs.  if you are worried about the breed so much, worry about the showlines and what people are doing to them.

most of the liver/liver carriers I am seeing are coming out of good title german/ddr/czech workinglines.  not the BYB ones.

I've had czech lines too, 1 was a Norbo grdaughter, bad hips.  another was all czech lines, crazy damn dog, horrible temperment, but she had some of the best lines around.  my german showlines have also had joint problems, squirrelly temperments, reproduction problems, and several died very young of  cancer.  I've spent lots of money and time on these dogs and they've all had problems.

now my defective genetic time bomb liver carriers are just as sound and healthy as can be, and after  my bad experiences with the "top" lines, I prefer to work with something that is healthy.

There is NO chance what so ever for the sire to be the one claimed. In fact even if his father was black or sable he would have to be mated to a black bitch in order to produce black puppies. 
 Only when at least one of the parents is sable itself, a sable pup can be born, Only black & brown pups can be born when both parents are black & brown: No matter how many of their ancestors were sable.

 There is a super presentation by Margit Van Dorssen (Von Arlett) here:
http://www.arlett.de/sables/index.html
All questions will be solved if you read the above ,
I suggest you start looking for the REAL father!!!!!!

well, according to the owner, the DNA's match as the blk/red male being the sire to the solid blue pup.  sire had to be DNA'd for AKC reg., and the pups were DNA'd and was found to be a match.

Sorry for your luck, but it's a bit of a draw when it comes to pups. Health can't be helped, but people can screw up a good dog. Are you sure that wasn't the problem?

 I've purchased one dog from Europe, so? The rest have were bred in Canada.

no, I didn't screw up these dogs.  I do believe I was sent the other breeders crap or wash outs though.  my foundation girl was an import with a V SCH3, 100 point obed and protection, wonderful bitch, terrible producer. was bred to nice enough titled males (had several litters before coming to me), so I doubt that was the problem either.  She had perianal fistula's and a heart murmur, things I did not find out about till after her litter with me.   I've also had a Belgian male, SCH3 IPO3 IWR3, dog had DM and was loosing control of his rear and became quite aggressive, I put him down before he got ahold of someone.  have received OFA'd and OFA prelimbed (supposedly) dogs, who when x-rayed for OFA, had almost no hip socket and would have never gotten a passing grade..  non of these were from the same breeder, and a few were from some big name people.

won't even get into the DDR crap.  thought those dogs were supposed to be healthier than the showlines, boy wasn't I wrong.

only luck I have ever had in this breed has been with the mixed bloodlines/ger/am crosses, and lines most of you wouldn't touch, so sorry if I get passionate and try to defend them.  best litters I ever had, and the best working puppies were out of an old fashioned bicolor blk/silver bitch.  she produced my SAR dogs. crosse one of her sons who was cert. SAR to a VA Yasko gr.daughter from V Tim and that litter has produced so far 3 SAR dogs working towards their titles.