color genetics - Page 1

I was curious, what are the chances of a dog from west german showlines, for 5-6 generations+ of blk/red to blk/red breedings, to carry for the solid gene? 

chances are not good.

well, dog is a recent import from Finland, of course he came to the US.  he is producing blues, which isn't a bg deal to me, but was curious since he produced solid blue and solid black in the litter.
...besides being bred to produce wolf hybrids, these are supposed to be all gsd pups, mom more of an american line, but still does not show why he would produce solids.

figured I would ask here, sine the other place, if I comment negatively about something the people get all defensive and basiclly call me a troll and how unhappy I am.

just trying to learn how a many many gen. german showline can produce solids, same thing with the solid blacks in Russia from supposedly all showline pediree's (even though the same kennel houses black workinglines, lol).

Thats a very interesting questions... Since he is BLK/RED for 5-6 generations seems he would produce only BLK/RED.. Since he is producing solid blacks and we know for certain both parents have to carry that BLK gene to produce it, He must carry that gene. Is this a perfect example that generations as far back as 6-7 do have an influence on what colors will be produced.?  Now I have no experience with the blue gene at all, but I am thinking that it is the same as black, both parents have to carry it to produce it...

It's a crapshoot.  It's definitely possible, and if he IS throwing all black puppies from time to time then that is an indication that he must carry it since it is a gene that requires 2 of it to produce a black puppy, so both sire and dam must have a recessive black gene and it must match up in the roulette game of genetics in order for them to produce a black puppy. 

If he is bred to a solid black female...obviously she has the black gene, there would likely be multiple black puppies in the litter, or there would be a better chance since her black gene would be dominant and it would have to match with sire's recessive black gene.  If he was bred to a black/tan, or black/red etc... then you would get a black puppy(puppies) only if dam has a black recessive gene.

Yep, it's a crapshoot.  You spin the wheel and sometimes and if the genes are there, sometimes you get a black puppy and sometimes you don't.  If you know the genetic makeup of the coat colour genes of the specific dog you could predict the likelyhood of what coat colour you will produce, but it's a prediction, that's all.

My husband and I both have brown eyes, and on my side it's brown eyes as far back as we can see, on my husband's side same thing except his mom has hazel eyes.  We have three kids.  2 have brown eyes, and one has hazel eyes.  Obviously I am a carrier for blue or hazel eyes, but I am likely a 75% brown gene 25% blue (or hazel) and hubby is 75% brown and 25% hazel, and when our youngest was created and the wheel was spun we landed on that 25% chance of having a hazel eye child since in the spin the wheel would have had to have landed on blue/hazel for both of us, since if it landed for only one of us, the brown gene would have trumped the blue/hazel gene and our third child would have also had brown eyes.

Phew....I haven't had to think back on Mendelian Genetics for a great number of years.  I've always had a soft spot for studying genetics.

I had a self coloured blue/grey OK Silver pup turn up ina  litter from a Bi-colour bitch to a Black and Tan saddle male. There was a second but with tan born moribund.

I was intrigued and rang Malcolm Willis, in his opinion the self coloured pup would have turned into a normal black and tan as it grew and changed its coat.  Based on the colour which was silver weimanarer colour not a true dusty/blue

Unfortunatly we never got to find out as the pup faded before 5 days old.

So I'd be really interested in the outcome on this one.

I know the bi-colour bitch carried black and I also know the black and tan didn't.

It's why this whole dominant black thing has me very curious, because it defies what we all see as 'normal' within the breed.

After a bit of digging here's a picture.

Ambii, I too had a pup that colour in my foundation bitches 2nd litter by Ch.Rosehurst Chris.Looked just like the pup in Dr.Malcolm Willis,s book.dont know how it turned out as they moved and didnt notify me.havent had one since altho.i did he 2 blue/tan pups in a later litter from her grd.daughter Charly(2 lines to R.Chris on sire lines,1 on my bitch and 1 line to Middross Panto on my bitch line)she had 7 or 8 pups,so near enuf 25 per cent.Carole S.Rheinmeister gsds.

Carole for me, it wasn't the colour itself (I can easily explain that away)  it was the fact the pup was solid, no tan on the vent no tan even between the toes, it was totally self coloured solid, there was no evidence of tan anywhere on it.

I would have happily kept that pup just to see what colour he eventually turned out to be.  Unfortunatly it wasn't meant to be and I lost him, but it's always raised a question in my head  because it defies what we see as normal within colour genetics in the breed, which is you need two black genes to get a black and there wasn't 2 black genes in that mating.

I wonder if it a mutation that makes the blue, because you see blue and tan as well.  I wonder if a single mutated black gene will dominate and make all of the black markings blue.  An acquaintance of mine had a litter of 7 pups in the spring and three were blue and tan.  Looking at the adults I don't see any blue in either sire or dam, although sire is a solid black....hence the wondering if a single black gene mutates and then dominates the blue over black colouring.

Just thinking out loud.  The friend is a bit of a BYB...I think (I shouldn't even say that since I don't know, they may be into sport or something, I don't know).....lost touch with them over the years and found them on facebook (and because a family member goes to the same DoJang as our family) late this spring, and noticed that they had Shepherds and had puppies. 

Anyway, I just shot her an email asking if her dogs are registered and if she wouldn't mind sharing where they came from if they were.  I wouldn't mind seeing the parents.