do you believe yr east/czech peds - Page 7

I think it would be so diluted,That far back, you would not be able to recognize the wolf outwardly. But, some of the temperament traits could and probably would be present. For example shyness, nervousness and very active at night, plus a very strong roaming instinct. I know, but don't laugh. I've had personal experience with various percentages, and some look like a wolf but act like a dog; others look like a dog but behave like a wolf. It's pretty unpredictable what you'll get. That's what I've seen.

It would look like this..see below
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1672532


Whether it resembles a gsd or a wolf, all depends on the choice of matings. Looking at the PDB pedigrees, and elsewhere on the wolf-dog sites, there are many examples of supposed gsd's who have wolf blood mixed in them and they cannot be distinguished visually from standard gsd's. If there was some mixing 7-10 generations ago, its almost impossible to detect it today. Not saying it happened, but the possibility cannot be excluded. Also worth noting that the zPS kennel was not the only ones doing the breedings...lots of other civilian breeders had access to the dogs.

P.S. the 1552 puppies recorded in the wolf-dog register were those between 1982-1991, dont know how good the record keeping was before 1982 and if every pup was kept track off.

Wow, Guggu, the dog in your avatar looks like that dog.

Wow, Guggu, the dog in your avatar looks like that dog.

LOL.  So  since Guddu has been persistently beating this non-existent horse, he almost certainly has a wolf hybrid at home, and his avatar and the picture he posted, is proof of it.  Of course his dog does not know that he was a descendant from the wolf-hybrid program, but now the cat is out of the bag. 

Missed the resemblance between Pedro and my dog, LOL.

Fact:In all countries, including Germany...some of the pedigrees may not have been accurate, particularly in the good old days when pedigrees were hand written or typed with a typewriter..
Fact: The GSD in the early days (1920's) had mixed blood (wolf) in it
Fact: Wolf blood-GSD's were intentionally bred from 1950's onwards- to see if the desirable qualities of the wolf could be bred into GSD. The goal in these offspring was to maintain the GSD type. later, when some were unhappy with the results, they decide to establish the 'wolf type", which is the current czech wolf-dog.
So we are not debating whether wolf's were bred to gsd's, but simply the probability that some of those wolf-gsd pups were not culled, but made it into the GSD pool.This may not have happened at zPS kennels, but there were many other breeders who may have had an interest to incorporate these wolf-gsd mixes into their breedings.

long ago I learnt: Absence of proof, is not proof of absence.

Happy New Year 2013...which is a good time to end this discussion...which is very difficult to resolve.

Keith. 8 generations you would not be able to tell. However during the era  when it would be done you could tell. Czech is small and GSD community there is even smaller. This would not go unnoticed. In order for the dog to be bred he has to pass breed survey and have a title.  Yes you may say that there  could be parallel dog which would be the front  but then there is tattoo issue in the ear which is done when the dog is pup. Yes I guess it is possible but it would be quite involved and lengthy scam and to what end?  The Czech border patrol developed Czechoslovakian wolf dog ( CV) which was quite useless and inconsistent in temperament. That was known and generally speaking GSD people realized that this is not the way to go. There was and still is splinter group which loves these dogs and they are trying to improve them. More then decade ago I have seen 1st CV ever to get ZVV1  title  it was not that great but the dog passed. The temperament is more stabilized  but it is less protective then GSD. It is not as skittish as wolf . The CV has very good hips production and is a good pet. In Russia the effort  continues  however I am not sure about the quality of these animals since I have not seen one. and I suslect that it is more hype then quality. 
http://europasicewolf.wordpress.com/tag/eurasian-wolf/
 Prager Hans

I would like to ad one more thing. In  Czechoslovakia in order for  non z PS person to ad wolf to GSD he would have to have a wolf. That simply  was not possible. I do not know about other countries but In Czechoslovakia it was not possible. Z PS program got wolfs from Government sponsored  ZOO. That were  the only available wolfs for such experiment.
 However. 
The GSD probably has wolf in him since it is a public secret that grandfather of Horand v Grafrath( first registered GSD)  was a wolf. 
Prager Hans

Guddu. 
You can not say that it is just because you can not prove that wolf in GSD was not proven that it is probable that it is there. Thus this is a  false statement.    : Absence of proof, is not proof of absence.

Argument from ignorance, is so famous that it has Latin name:  argumentum ad ignorantiam  = stands for: "lack of evidence to the contrary" and it is a fallacy of logic and it is used quite often . But it is a   Sophistry - illogical /false statement. Such statement  asserts in our case here, that a proposition that GSD has wolf  is true or even probable because it has not yet been proven false. This  does not include  other options , which in this case  is that there is insufficient investigation into the wolf x GSD mix and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false.
  Thus to say that  there was wolf added to GSD   in 50ties or later  in Czechoslovakia or elsewhere   for that matter is a possibility,    since as you say it was not proven to the  contrary,...   then this statement:"there were many other breeders who may have had an interest to incorporate these wolf-gsd mixes into their breedings." is true or   according to you it  probably  true is in fact illogical and it is thus false. 
I could say there are wolfs on Mars and since it was not proven  otherwise it is probable that is is true is as far as logic goes  just as false. 
Prager Hans

The Tundra Shepherd is 3/4 GSD and 1/4 Arctic Wolf I have only seen and worked about a dozen or so but found what I worked to be junk. Way too hard -headed and not balanced in their drives.  A training friend of mine worked for Frank Catania (the founder of the breed) and said "they were crap". Just my experience with wolf mixed with GSD's.

Paul

Hans:
   Your logic is impeccable..but my statement is not intended to cover all logical permutations, but only one (to the topic under discussion). I have never suggested that wolves were used by common breeders, only that its unclear if there is a good accounting of all the wolf-gsd pups that were produced and whether any might have made it into the gsd pool. If you think about it, perhaps thousands of wolf-gsd pups were produced, were they all culled, or send back to zoos ?. If I leave a single man on an island full of young nuns..what do you think might happen. Let's go by the probabilities...I have a fertile imagination.

Paul:
      Yes, its possible that wolf-gsd hybrids are shy, no one is challenging that (Though the standard for the czech wolf-dog says that they have a good temperament). I am only discussing the probability that some mixing occurred. Again nothing can be proven/disproven...so the issue cannot be resolved. Its worth noting that the original gsd's had wolf content and by proper selection, good dogs can be obtained in subsequent generations.