do you believe yr east/czech peds - Page 8

guddu
   Just sharing my experience. I trying to prove/disprove anything. Have a great day.

Paul
 

Guddu, lol, sorry about typo. ( Guggu) This thing has a mind of it's own.

Guddu: Again nothing can be proven/disproven...so the issue cannot be resolved. Its worth noting that the original gsd's had wolf content and by proper selection, good dogs can be obtained in subsequent generations.

Looking at a decades-old B&W photograph (like the one you posted of the wolf-hybrid) is one thing.  But looking at a live animal in front of you, for a breed survey (for breeding the dog in Czech), being  done by a professional GSD expert (the Breed Warden), and trying to slip a wolf-hybrid by such is person as a full-blooded GSD, is next to impossible, IMO, regardless of how closely the hybrid looks like a dog to a lay-person.  Especially when the breed warden intimately knows the purported sire and the dam and all of the ancestors of the "dog" in front of him, for the survey.  Of course the survey is not just looking at the physical aspects but also the temperament......which takes the matter of slipping one by such an expert, an exercise in futility.

As Hans stated, Czechoslovakia is a small country with an even smaller community looking after GSDs and if someone tries to play smart by trying to pull a fast one, he/she would be swiftly exposed.

Internet theorizing is one thing, but getting it practically done on the ground is a whole another matter, and needs a whole series of buffoons all around, with thick wool over their eyes and cotton over their ears, to pull it off.

There were many people who bred or could have had access to those pups. Many people think even today that its an achievable and worthwhile goal...as reflected by the fact that the czech wolf-dog is a recognized breed...with supposedly excellent temperament (as per the standard). If mixing was done, it was not to fool anybody, but probably because in those days some thought it was a good idea. While some may choose to drink the official kool-aid, I prefer to stay with evidence and probabilities. Right now the evidence is not there to prove/disprove anything...which I have said all along...end of discussion on my part on this topic.

Guddu:  If mixing was done, it was not to fool anybody, but probably because in those days some thought it was a good idea.

I think you are still missing the point of the breed Survey (Bonitacni Karta or Full Bonitacion).  Someone might have thought "it was a good idea" but what good does it do ?  You cannot breed  a dog, till you complete the breed survey and the dog is rated by the Breed Warden as suitable for breeding. 

So whether a private citizen thinks "it is a good idea" or not, is immaterial in the larger scheme of things, since the second you get the wolf-hybrid in front of a breed warden for a full breed survey as a GSD, game over ! 

On top of it it is known that it was/ is not such a great idea. It does not improve on GSD's temperament  and consistency of temperament. It increased endurance and that was only benefit. But who cares that the CV could rum 40 km instead of 15km and  what was that good for if the temperament was not so good and inconsistent if the temperament was good. The temperament was never better then in a GSD though. CV is the product of this extensive and expensive experiment and it was scratched. Now the CV is a good family pet which looks like a wolf. Yes there is still following of people breeding CVs who are trying to improve the temperament and workability but in several decades such effort has minimal results.  This is all known and I think there is as much desire to cross GSD with wolf ( in Czech) as is there desire to cross GSD with golden retriever. Thus no I do not think that injecting wolf  into GSD   is done and it was not done and only people dreaming about it are not in Czech where this was already done  with disastrous results to say the least and those results are public knowledge there. Thus I do not think that anybody would do it illegally at great risk to his/her membership in thr GSD club. 
Prager Hans 

I have posted one picture above and there are others. A mix cannot be identified in all cases by visual exam even if done by breed warden.

Yes, the mixes did not work out....but this conclusion was reached after 40 years of breeding. If the conclusion was unequivocal early on (that the mixed dogs were crap), why persist for 40 years in a futile attempt to improve the breed. 40 years of breeding with resultant thousands of dogs, with the original aim to improve the gsd....and no one mixed anything into the gsd lines?.Do we not hear that pedigrees were sometimes inaccurate even for gsd's.  (not referring to any particular kennel) in the past, heck sometimes even these days. I appreciate your trust in the Czech Slovak system under the communist regime. Did we not hear of all kinds of smuggling of dogs, liquor, cigarettes that went on, what about all the corruption in the communist system...the probabilities do not support your trust in the system, but I will concede you know things first hand.

Even today there are many breedings between unpapered dogs, how do we know that one such breeding with a wolf-mix was not attributed to a papered dog ?. I dont know the system, so can you explain if the breed warden is present at every studding. or how is such a possibility ruled out.

Guddu:I have posted one picture above and there are others. A mix cannot be identified in all cases by visual exam even if done by breed warden

A full breed survey is not merely a "visual exam".  It goes into every aspect of the animal, all the way from the anatomy (there are easily identifiable anatomical differences between a wolf and a GSD, even though may not be apparent in a B&W picture), the dentition, detailed look at the temperament, courage/hardness testing, breeding worthiness etc.  And the panel of  judges along with the breed warden are experts in what he/she/they are looking at.  Trying to slip a GSD-mix by such people as a full-blooded-GSD, is basically a fool's errand and the consequences from being found out are devastating for the person and it simply won't be worth the time and trouble.

This is akin to saying that you can stuff the shell of a Ferrari Enzo with the engine of a Ford Focus and transmission borrowed from the Ford Mustang, and  try to get it certified by a Ferrari factory expert as a full-on Ferrari.  The very instant the Ferrari expert switches on the machine (or even examines what is presented to him, closely), GAME OVER.   You may however be able to fool a lay-person with this pseudo-Ferrari, as a real Ferrari but what point does that serve, if you want to sell it  as a factory certified product ?  Hope this makes sense.

Please note that the situation in the US is different from regions like Germany, Czech etc where you need a breed survey and passing hip/elbow scores to be eligible for breeding.  Here, all you need is 2 "pure-bred" GSDs to be slapped together in a backyard and you can merrily go register the resultant progeny as "pure-bred" GSDs. Different situation and rules in other parts of the world.

After the breeding with wolf, if the best pup(s) are selected from the litter and mated with a GSD for 3-4 generations, I dont think anyone can reliably identify wolf blood at 12.5% content. It is also probable that 1-2 pups out of a litter of 8 may actually have OK temperament. Infact F3/F4 hybrids were used as service dogs. In recent times, there are videos on the web where BSZS Sch 3 SL gsdogs performed miserably in the temperament/protection tests...so a poor temperament in a dog can be there due to many reasons.

The more important question, consistent with Occam's razor is, the question I asked earlier. What if after 3-4gen this hybrid dog is used for breeding, and it is claimed that another dark sable gsd with pedigree papers was the responsible stud, how was that controlled for in the period 1955-1991 when people did not even have access to DNA technology, records were hand written or typed. Even today, I dont think everyone stores DNA from their breedings.

Finally much of the breeding was done in Slovak republic under Frantisek Rosik who expanded the program tremendously. 

See some other pictures:

1960 Old and Odin z PS F2 gen


F4 1965 Lex z PS