Epilepsy Do we have a problem - Page 5

Pam, just out of interest.  did the Neurologist comment on Epilepsy in the GSD and its frequency?  Would be good to know the scale of the problem

Hi Alyson,
No she didn't although I didn't request that information this is what I asked her:
"I wonder if it is possible if you can answer my queries?
> Firstly has the DNA marker for epilepsy in the GSD been identified,
> secondly there seems to be different theories on the inheritance and so
> many lines are saturated with lines to epilepsy producers, I was always
> told that one 1 parent was needed to pass this on, some are saying both
> lines sire and dam. Do the researchers know as yet or is it dependent on
> the type of inherent epilepsy.


But so many owners do not get in touch with breeders and then you also have those breeders who are not open about what is in their lines.

Perhaps now it is time for All the breed clubs in the UK to make a co-ordinated effort and liaise with the researchers, give DNA, Blood samples of affected dogs, those that have known to produce plus older dogs that have been used in breeding programs that have not produced any progeny with epilepsy.
If everyone works together regardless of type/lines they can make a difference to the health of the breed and help to find the markers and hopefully a test that then can be made compulsory.
Pam

Zac
Do you know the bitch lines, if any are yours can you not name the bitches as they are carriers of the mutated gene, if they are not yours can the owners come on here maybe under a different thread headed Dwarfism and name the bitches, this is not a witch hunt if the lines are identified and then confirmed by testing people can plan their breeding programs and owners of siblings can get theirs tested.
Pam

Hi Pam,
Thanks very much for the update on mode of inheritance. Even though sadly, it still remains as much of a mystery as it always was. The safest way therefore is to avoid doubling up of the lines , as was always the case, which of course suggests the mode of inheritance comes from both sides of the pedigree and of course not breeding from any known sufferer. Whether the disease is now passed on from one or both parents it sounds most probable that any sufferer would at least produce carriers in all of its offspring. That is the mode of inheritance theory I have always worked with as I had no other theory to go by and there but for the grace of god go any of us.

All everyone can do now is to come forward with as much information as they have regarding the pedigree's of known sufferers because in the absence of a known DNA marker or the actual mode of inheritance the only way we will be able to stop these isolated incidents from further esculation is to openly share information.  As Chris Hazel is our chosen Breed Health co-ordinator and is also a member of the GSDL Council, perhaps we will all have to look again to the League to find a fix for our Breed.

Best Regards
Sue
 

I have no idea if this is going to work as it is the first time I have posted on here and have had to register in light of the comments above.      I am the breeder of two of the dwarfs by Nasko and out of my own bitch Tolberg High Class.    For those of you who are interested by bitch is by Lararth Antaeus at Deejays out of Tolberg Bewtiched (Lindanvale Fresco at Deejays ex a Yago von Steigerhof daugher going back onto Chris lines through Jonimay Shannon).   I have NEVER made a secret that I got these two dwarfs.    There was 10 born in the litter but within 10 days, 4 had faded and died so I thought.  I rarely get fading puppies so had the rest of the litter checked out.  Even at 10 days there was a marked difference in size between the remaining 6 pups.  2 were tiny compared with the rest.  They received antibiotics and were seen by the vet at least twice a week for over a month as the vet thought they had some kind of systemic infection.    I was niave as looking back they were clearly dwarfs.    I did ask Joan and Davey if they thought they were dwarfs but they didnt think so.   I later found out that someone in Scotland had also a dwarf by Nasko (older than mine) and have since heard of another dwarf by him from a yonger litter.   But both parents have to be carriers to produce dwarfs, my lines are equally to blame.    It was me that took part in the research programme in Holland refered to above and all my dogs including the two dwarfs and normal siblings had blood taken.    Unfortunately, before I knew that mine were dwarfs, Edward Armstrong took his bitch (a full sister to mine) to Nasko and she had 10 pups and no dwarfs.   However, she is the dam of one of the epileptics.   So clearly not a good combination.  

 "But both parents have to be carriers to produce dwarfs, my lines are equally to blame. "

Hi Lynne nobody wants to blame anyone, and thank you for providing further information. For me, and I am talking epilepsy now, if blame lies anywhere it is with the breeders who know it is in their lines and carry on using the lines and keep the fact secret. Dwarfism is a slightly different matter, the lines for this are quite well known and a dwarf can be spotted very young and not passed on to the unsuspecting public.

I really hope people come forward and pass on more info regarding epileptic lines, particularly in the modern day GSD, we all know about Quadrille but we really do need to know more about modern day lines.

I agree that breeders need to be open when problems arise, but I also think this all needs to be put into context.     Unless there are others that I am unaware of, it is 2 dogs out of possibly 100 that Nasko has sired (had 15 litters I believe).     Also as has been pointed out on this thread, they both had mothers and until the mode of inheritance is known I dont think the finger can be pointed at either.   I cannot comment on Karen and Alan's breeding, but I know that I have bred from my lines for 20 odd years and up to now (thank god) it is the first epileptic that I am aware of from my lines (1 out of possibly 300 that I have bred/close friends have bred).    There are also other factors that can cause epilepsy, it is not always hereditary and it could just be a major coincidence.     Whilst for the two epileptic dogs and their owners it is tragic and certainly something as a breeder I would try to avoid, is it enough to say that we have a major problem with these lines?    I am not trying to brush anything under the carpet or play it down as I have lived with an epileptic dog for 12.5 out of 14 years of his life (our first dog that we bought in - no relation to our lines), its just I think a little bit of caution and common sense needs to be used here.   No doubt others wont agree.

Like you, Carol I really hope people who have had epilptics do come forward and pass on the information about their lines, because this is the only way that problems can really be identified. 

I have found two papers on Epilepsy which some of you may find interesting.  The details are as follows

1. Symposium on Canine Epilepsy

This paper is in pdf format and can be download. It is 15 pages long

www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/97/Epilepsy .pdf

2. Clinical Characteristics and Inheritance of Idiopathic Epilepsy

Author Edward Patterson DVM, PhD, DACVIM

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=TUFTSBG2007&PID=18605&Category=3036&O=Generic


I hope the readers find this of interest

Mackenzie

This is an extract from Sheila Rankin. Absolutely heartbreaking. Although it was written some time ago and I would be more than nervous about 6 lines running to Quadrille, it emphasis the importance of checking further back than the actual pedigree.

EPILEPSY- A LESSON FOR RE- LEARNING?

Soon after the notice regarding the Dr. Phyllis Croft Foundation appeared in the press, I received a letter from Linda Allan who has recently suffered the trauma of the death of a beloved Shepherd through epilepsy. Here is an extract from that letter;

I read the magazine with interest and I also study other journals relating to GSD's. I am amazed and dismayed that absolutely no mention of epilepsy is ever featured. Is this because it is such a taboo subject or do the experts and professionals consider it not worth a mention?. There is so much emphasis on hip scores and when I selected my "Oscar" I took this into account along with good temperament but to my cost I knew nothing about epilepsy. I can not understand why it is not given more publicity, is there any other inherent problem that come close to the trauma of living with a fitting dog? Since Oscar was given sleep I have asked many times "Why me?"

A glance at Oscars pedigree would have been enough to set alarm bells ringing for those who were around in the late 60's and early 70's and who will remember, if they care to, the Hendrawen Quadrille of Eveley episode but younger breeders will possibly not have heard of him. Quadrille was by Hendrawen's Vondaun Quebec ex Vanity of Eveley. He won a CC early in his show career and, as breeders then were not much different from breeders today, including my late husband "TV" and I. This resulted in there soon being many of his progeny winning while he was still a young dog himself and as a result even more breeders used him.

Stories started circulating that Quadrille was having fits but his owner said that these were the result of him having been in contact with the distemper virus and that his fits were no more hereditory than a broken leg is hereditary. Then George Woods and Harry Dunkely of Novem alerted other breeders that 3 of a litter they had bred by Quadrille had started fitting. We have retained a dog "Sheracyn Nevada" and a bitch "Sheracyn Nemesis" from a litter of 10 by Quadrille ex a Ch. Ludwig daughter so although neither were having fits we took them to Dr. Phyla's Croft to have an EEG. Breeders were sceptical of this EEG equipment which certainly did not inspire confidence. It consisted of various leads which were attached to the dogs heads by pins and a bulldog clip attached to their neck chains. The brain patterns were recorded on a length of paper which Dr. Croft studied later. Of necessity the reading was not very long so if it showed unusual brain activity indicative of epilepsy on the short strip then it must be assumed that the dog was an epileptic. EVEN IF HE HAD NOT HAD FITS.