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by Penny on 02 February 2010 - 12:02
BAGSD IDEA OF DEMOCRACY
I sincerely hope that all who know me, know that I had hoped that BAGSD would not come out of their EC meeting with such a closed system of voting on the issue of the KC letter, given the long conversations that I have had with a prominent EC member............. AND THAT I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE WAY IT READS
I hope I am wrong.
The BAGSD statement on their website is clearly pointing to the signing of the document. That is their prerogative - but given that they have many members that are working and obedience and would not even bother to find out the VAST implications of signing this document, it is very safe to say that one vote from each branch would give a very jaundiced view of the real feeling of the members.
For instance, all of my members at Derbyshire VPG have said NO to signing the KC document. I would be sending in one vote. However if 51% of my members said NO to signing, I would still be sending in my vote from the branch of NO. 49% of my members would not have been heard. That is one little branch !!
I am in a very sad place today. I trusted that BAGSD would be impartial, and their website suggests otherwise. It is one matter having a bias, indeed the League have made their bias very clear - but they have also made the effort to listen and consider EVERY member, not EVERY branch. A letter has been sent to BAGSD EC committee for clarificaton on this very point. I hope that it will be answered with the utmost urgency, as there is a very important event coming up.
Mo Lakin
I sincerely hope that all who know me, know that I had hoped that BAGSD would not come out of their EC meeting with such a closed system of voting on the issue of the KC letter, given the long conversations that I have had with a prominent EC member............. AND THAT I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE WAY IT READS
I hope I am wrong.
The BAGSD statement on their website is clearly pointing to the signing of the document. That is their prerogative - but given that they have many members that are working and obedience and would not even bother to find out the VAST implications of signing this document, it is very safe to say that one vote from each branch would give a very jaundiced view of the real feeling of the members.
For instance, all of my members at Derbyshire VPG have said NO to signing the KC document. I would be sending in one vote. However if 51% of my members said NO to signing, I would still be sending in my vote from the branch of NO. 49% of my members would not have been heard. That is one little branch !!
I am in a very sad place today. I trusted that BAGSD would be impartial, and their website suggests otherwise. It is one matter having a bias, indeed the League have made their bias very clear - but they have also made the effort to listen and consider EVERY member, not EVERY branch. A letter has been sent to BAGSD EC committee for clarificaton on this very point. I hope that it will be answered with the utmost urgency, as there is a very important event coming up.
Mo Lakin
by jaymesie51 on 02 February 2010 - 13:02
Clause 9 The Club confirms that it will act in good faith with the Kennel Club on all matters including confirmation that it will not, without the express permission of the Kennel Club, run any events under the rules or regulations of any organisation other than the Kennel Club.
What part of this statement do the EC of BAGSD not understand if they sign this undertaking then it will affect our sieger show why Well it is run under the SV/wusv Rules
1 This show is not run under KC regulations as it involves all dogs of age to be breed surveyed which means they must be health tested
2 this show also involves our working dog class ie Bite Work Test for VA status
3 this show also has a double handling area set aside to allow us to attract our dogs
4 this show grades all animals from 1st to last
So where do they think it needs any clarifacation,
jim h
What part of this statement do the EC of BAGSD not understand if they sign this undertaking then it will affect our sieger show why Well it is run under the SV/wusv Rules
1 This show is not run under KC regulations as it involves all dogs of age to be breed surveyed which means they must be health tested
2 this show also involves our working dog class ie Bite Work Test for VA status
3 this show also has a double handling area set aside to allow us to attract our dogs
4 this show grades all animals from 1st to last
So where do they think it needs any clarifacation,
jim h
by Penny on 02 February 2010 - 13:02
that very clause says it all. EVENTS - not shows. I did point this out several times in conversation. Mo.
by missbeeb on 02 February 2010 - 13:02
Sorry to hear that... but sadly, not surprised.
by Sue B on 02 February 2010 - 13:02
Jim (jaymeise), Of course you have picked up on the most relevant point here. Quite simply BAGSD's could no longer be involved in running the WUSV British Sieger Event.
Firstly because of the double handling issue , try telling exhibitors from overseas there will be no special rings set up for safe double handling simply because they WILL NOT be able to attract their dogs in any way at all, not even by calling their name, a sneeze, a cough, a hiss or a jangle of keys, NOTHING and you might as well say bye bye to any overseas entries and without the possibility of getting those overseas entries the spectacular potential of the event is already reduced and weakened.
Secondly, what would the Working Side of our breed think if this was the case, would they still stay with BAGSD's or move over to form Working Branches of the GSDL?
Thirdly, and perhaps the most important at the moment because at this point in time it is the most relevant to the GSD itself, why has the Exec Committee of The British Association for GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS (and note the emphasis on German Shepherd Dogs) FAILED to put out a statement which advises those of its members who do NOT OWN A GSD to leave the voting to those that do and then as Mo Lakin has so rightly said, the individual members votes should be counted not the branches (many of which are run by Exec Committee members anyway).
Funny how BAGSD's continually refuse to join the Breed Council because they felt their voting power on it should reflect their number of members but when that might work against what the Exec Comm want they now only want to hear from their Branches (as I say most of which are run by EC members anyways).
Why dont the EC want all their members to be heard? Because it might go against what the majority of the individuals who sit on the EC want. In which case why not let all your members decide and if their decision is different to yours why not just resign from the EC, I am sure there will be many prepared to sit in your seats and do the best for the GSD instead of their own individual ego's or kudos as a KC member. We finally have a chance to do what is best for the Health of the Shepherd in our show rings, not because we want to split from the KC but because the KC have refused to continue dialogue with our GSDP over Mandatory Health Initiatives and the BAGSD EC is found lacking, you should be ashamed as you have rendered the Club UnWorthy of its WUSV membership. If BAGSD;s votes to sign this KC Undertaking then it loses all Feasibility as a WUSV Member.
Regards
Sue
Firstly because of the double handling issue , try telling exhibitors from overseas there will be no special rings set up for safe double handling simply because they WILL NOT be able to attract their dogs in any way at all, not even by calling their name, a sneeze, a cough, a hiss or a jangle of keys, NOTHING and you might as well say bye bye to any overseas entries and without the possibility of getting those overseas entries the spectacular potential of the event is already reduced and weakened.
Secondly, what would the Working Side of our breed think if this was the case, would they still stay with BAGSD's or move over to form Working Branches of the GSDL?
Thirdly, and perhaps the most important at the moment because at this point in time it is the most relevant to the GSD itself, why has the Exec Committee of The British Association for GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS (and note the emphasis on German Shepherd Dogs) FAILED to put out a statement which advises those of its members who do NOT OWN A GSD to leave the voting to those that do and then as Mo Lakin has so rightly said, the individual members votes should be counted not the branches (many of which are run by Exec Committee members anyway).
Funny how BAGSD's continually refuse to join the Breed Council because they felt their voting power on it should reflect their number of members but when that might work against what the Exec Comm want they now only want to hear from their Branches (as I say most of which are run by EC members anyways).
Why dont the EC want all their members to be heard? Because it might go against what the majority of the individuals who sit on the EC want. In which case why not let all your members decide and if their decision is different to yours why not just resign from the EC, I am sure there will be many prepared to sit in your seats and do the best for the GSD instead of their own individual ego's or kudos as a KC member. We finally have a chance to do what is best for the Health of the Shepherd in our show rings, not because we want to split from the KC but because the KC have refused to continue dialogue with our GSDP over Mandatory Health Initiatives and the BAGSD EC is found lacking, you should be ashamed as you have rendered the Club UnWorthy of its WUSV membership. If BAGSD;s votes to sign this KC Undertaking then it loses all Feasibility as a WUSV Member.
Regards
Sue
by Penny on 02 February 2010 - 14:02
Hey - MissBeeb - the show aint over til the fat ldy sings. There are members in BAGSD that are working right now on fulfilling a democratic vote. We may not succed, but we will bloody try because there are lots of members of BAGSD that are not political animals, and are very nice people -they too deserve their vote, Mo
by missbeeb on 02 February 2010 - 14:02
OK... I hope these people are listened to; however, if they go ahead and sign... isn't it for just the one year? Doesn't it have to be signed every year? If so, I'm sure next year will see further changes!
by Penny on 02 February 2010 - 14:02
From Sue.......
"Funny how BAGSD's continually refuse to join the Breed Council because they felt their voting power on it should reflect their number of members but when that might work against what the Exec Comm want they now only want to hear from their Branches (as I say most of which are run by EC members anyways)."
Now this interests me because it is a very valid point. I was told when I questioned an EC member - why BAGSD wasnt a member club - that if I joined up as a branch with the B.Council, and other branches did the same, then they would have the majority votes on any issue. !!! I couldnt believe it, and asked Sheila, and of course, Shelia was having none - just as I thought ! and quite rightly so. This was at the Autumn B.C. meeting. I am sure that Sheila can confirm ! Mo
"Funny how BAGSD's continually refuse to join the Breed Council because they felt their voting power on it should reflect their number of members but when that might work against what the Exec Comm want they now only want to hear from their Branches (as I say most of which are run by EC members anyways)."
Now this interests me because it is a very valid point. I was told when I questioned an EC member - why BAGSD wasnt a member club - that if I joined up as a branch with the B.Council, and other branches did the same, then they would have the majority votes on any issue. !!! I couldnt believe it, and asked Sheila, and of course, Shelia was having none - just as I thought ! and quite rightly so. This was at the Autumn B.C. meeting. I am sure that Sheila can confirm ! Mo
by Skippy on 02 February 2010 - 15:02
Dear Secretary (BAGSD)
Would you be so kind and place on your web site (prominently) these seven relevant points regarding what failure to sign the KC document, and excluding article 9 would entail.
Many thanks
J Bridge
RUMOURS ARE IGNORANT NONSENSE
I am getting very annoyed with reports I am receiving with regards to the Kennel Club "UNDERTAKING" for GSD breed Clubs.
There appears to be numerous "rumours" being spread around, which appear to originate from people involved within GSD, with a clear personal agenda, or from people who are simply ignorant of the truth.
The rumours they are spreading are obviously by word of mouth. They would never dare to put there comments or assertions in writing, because that would get them into trouble with the organisations they make reference to with their false allegations. Organisations which include the Kennel Club, The WUSV and SV and the GSD Breed Clubs they malign.
The rumours are, putting it very simply, "ignorant nonsense". They are formulated to raise concerns and fears into the hearts and minds of many people who serve on GSD Breed club committees and also GSD breed club members, GSD exhibitors, GSD breeders and even GSD owners. The rumours cite many false consequences if breed Clubs REFUSE TO SIGN THE KENNEL CLUB "UNDERTAKING"
I put my assertions in writing. The "rumourmongers" may respond in writing!
1) The Kennel Club cannot remove the KC license from a GSD breed Club for simply refusing to sign their "undertaking"
2) The Kennel Club cannot penalise any person or any GSD in any way whatsoever, just because any or all GSD breed clubs do not sign their "undertaking".
3) The Kennel Club cannot discipline any person for judging a Regional Event (WUSV)
4) The Kennel Club cannot ban any GSD from being exhibited at a KC licensed show, just because it has been exhibited at a Regional Event (WUSV) or any other GSD Event (WUSV)
5) The Kennel Club cannot refuse to register any GSD litters, or fulfil all other KC registration functions, - just because any or all GSD clubs refuse to sign the KC "undertaking".
6) The Kennel Club CAN only refuse to allocate their Breed CC's to any GSD breed Club that does not sign their "undertaking".
7) The comment being made that GSD Events (WUSV) held in the United Kingdom by a WUSV member Club, or hosted by any other GSD Breed Clubs, requires the permission of the Kennel Club, and that this is, or may be, a WUSV rule. is "IGNORANT NONSENSE"
The WUSV Constitution (English)
is available here: http://www.videxgsd.com/ignorant_nonsense.htm
David Payne
VIDEX GSD
www.videxgsd.com
Would you be so kind and place on your web site (prominently) these seven relevant points regarding what failure to sign the KC document, and excluding article 9 would entail.
Many thanks
J Bridge
RUMOURS ARE IGNORANT NONSENSE
I am getting very annoyed with reports I am receiving with regards to the Kennel Club "UNDERTAKING" for GSD breed Clubs.
There appears to be numerous "rumours" being spread around, which appear to originate from people involved within GSD, with a clear personal agenda, or from people who are simply ignorant of the truth.
The rumours they are spreading are obviously by word of mouth. They would never dare to put there comments or assertions in writing, because that would get them into trouble with the organisations they make reference to with their false allegations. Organisations which include the Kennel Club, The WUSV and SV and the GSD Breed Clubs they malign.
The rumours are, putting it very simply, "ignorant nonsense". They are formulated to raise concerns and fears into the hearts and minds of many people who serve on GSD Breed club committees and also GSD breed club members, GSD exhibitors, GSD breeders and even GSD owners. The rumours cite many false consequences if breed Clubs REFUSE TO SIGN THE KENNEL CLUB "UNDERTAKING"
I put my assertions in writing. The "rumourmongers" may respond in writing!
1) The Kennel Club cannot remove the KC license from a GSD breed Club for simply refusing to sign their "undertaking"
2) The Kennel Club cannot penalise any person or any GSD in any way whatsoever, just because any or all GSD breed clubs do not sign their "undertaking".
3) The Kennel Club cannot discipline any person for judging a Regional Event (WUSV)
4) The Kennel Club cannot ban any GSD from being exhibited at a KC licensed show, just because it has been exhibited at a Regional Event (WUSV) or any other GSD Event (WUSV)
5) The Kennel Club cannot refuse to register any GSD litters, or fulfil all other KC registration functions, - just because any or all GSD clubs refuse to sign the KC "undertaking".
6) The Kennel Club CAN only refuse to allocate their Breed CC's to any GSD breed Club that does not sign their "undertaking".
7) The comment being made that GSD Events (WUSV) held in the United Kingdom by a WUSV member Club, or hosted by any other GSD Breed Clubs, requires the permission of the Kennel Club, and that this is, or may be, a WUSV rule. is "IGNORANT NONSENSE"
The WUSV Constitution (English)
is available here: http://www.videxgsd.com/ignorant_nonsense.htm
David Payne
VIDEX GSD
www.videxgsd.com
by jaymesie51 on 02 February 2010 - 16:02
I think that some of the powers that be on the BAGSD are more interested in furthering their climb up the KC ladder and that is the reason for them saying what they have said on their website, i would urge all BAGSD members to ask for a proper democratic vote on this issue where each and every member who owns a gsd gets a proper vote and the votes be counted by all and not by branches and again this should be a postal vote with 2 simple questions do we sign this letter or dont we
A = sign, B = Dont sign, with no other letters trying to sway the vote one way or another this vote is extremely important for all gsd owners exhibitors and breeders do not let your EC sway your vote, vote for what you think is best for our breed.
jim h.
A = sign, B = Dont sign, with no other letters trying to sway the vote one way or another this vote is extremely important for all gsd owners exhibitors and breeders do not let your EC sway your vote, vote for what you think is best for our breed.
jim h.
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