The ideal GSD before the breed was bifurcated into WL and SL - Page 10

Jeff, would you consider the object guard in ringsport as "defense" behavior, neither aggressive or evasive?

daryll , if you spent a little more time on the trainingfield , you would know the difference  , and not make such silly comments

In other words, you're unable to admit Jeff's correct, and you have no viable argument.

Do tell us, how do YOU use defense in your training?

in sports , IPO ring etc , dogs are not trained in defence but in prey , because we want them to bite the sleeve not the decoy , so also a dog with high defence is trained in prey , make him carry the sleeve , etc
for personal protection and patrolwork  , thats another question , there I want my nog not all hyped up for a guy in a bitesuit(prey) , but solely responding to a threat ,  not jumping and barking when the prey moves or after the out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpjvHIcnBIA

this is defence based  training

however it was not the question how I or anybody else train , or why you dont at all , butthe point was that many dogs ere bred and selected on extremes , one of them being preydrive

many dogs have high preydrive , but lacking courage  , but will bite in their safe program solely over their preydrive , some of these dogs you can recognize when they fall off the sleeve  on the long bite , and the helper really comes in on the rebite  you see some doubt and some even dont reengage , you even see this happen on WUSV  level ,
also many malinois are like this , more prey than courage

 Daryl says: Dog's that do act territorial, it's pretty much always the nerves talkin.

Well, folks, the discussion is over. Nothing left to debate. Daryl has spoken and the fact is that if a dog is territorial, s/he has weak nerves. 

Jeff says: I started off with the Disney version of what dogs are. If I had my choice, I would probably go back and never figure this shit out. I do think less of dogs overall.

Jeff, maybe it's that dogs think less of YOU overall, hence the destruction of your Disney view. 

From your posts detailing what you look for in a dog, what you select against, and what you are happy ending up with, it's a wonder you still like dogs at all. 

Having lived abroad, I can vouch that expecting other countries to have the same level of access to dog-training or even SchH competitions that we enjoy in the US is akin to comparing the availability of working dog clubs here with those in Germany. I'd imagine that SchH clubs in some countries are scarce as there are other priorities for their people's time and assets. Maybe the term "Defense" is not what is being discussed, but it sounds more like a "civil" dog.

 Quote: one of the simple reasons you dont see many GSD in ring is that they want a pushing bite in ring , where GSD are mainly pulling after the bite ,
second and most important reason is , malinois are a national breed in belgium , and its a belgium originated sport , created by the belgium shepherd breeders


the reason why you see schh trained GSD fail in ring is NOT because they were trained in defence , because no schh dog is trained in defence , but because every schh training is build up over prey , also mine dogs with more than average defence/sharpness are build up over prey , because that is what you want in schh , or the dog wont bite the arm , but go for the closest part he can get


furthermore , defence and insecurety are two totally different things



I have a GSD's and they bite just fine. I just want them to bite, however Esko pushes in, and Basco just bites.  Sch people tend to teach their dogs to pull. Ring people tend to teach to bite in.

So there is no table training out there ? There is not defense training done at all ? : )

Quote:  also mine dogs with more than average defence/sharpness are build up over prey , because that is what you want in schh , or the dog wont bite the arm , but go for the closest part he can get

I am just guessing, but you are saying that your dogs are defensive and sharp and go for something other than the arm ? I saw you with your little bitch and I did not see defensive or sharp. You are not going to find those dogs that bite just where ever very often.



Quote: From your posts detailing what you look for in a dog, what you select against, and what you are happy ending up with, it's a wonder you still like dogs at all.

I have no idea what you are saying.

Quote: the fact is that if a dog is territorial, s/he has weak nerves.

Weaker nerves, yes. How do you explain all those dogs that you go to the house and they are wagging their tail to get petted ?? 

Lets just take three dogs all of which are the same dog nerve wise. How they are raised is going to effect if they bark or not. Many dogs that show "territorial aggression" are just goofing out of boredom. If you open the gate they stop barking and start wagging. 

Some dogs just wag and walk up to you

Some dogs will act savage on the fence have not been socialized very well.

Can what we call "nerves" be effected by how we socialize the dog Jennie poo poo ?

jeff , my little bitch is defensive and sharp , but since Im training IPO with her , we are training her over preydrive , still now  , if the helper keeps the sleeve to the side too much se will go for the body , also my other dogs in IPO will come over the sleeve when pushed too much , but when in program , they will stay on the sleeve , now ajax , the PPD im training is never set on prey , and when threatened , he will go for the nearest part , whatever that is , also my bitch Axa , the mother of my little bitch is like that

by breeding patroltype dogs to more sport(prey)dogs , Im getting multiple dogs in the litter whith what I see as the right BALANCE    between prey end defence/sharpness or civil whatever label you wanna put on

I completely understand that people  who want to compete on a high level want a dog that is most suitable for the job , a preymonster , being an extreme like what hans was referring too

furthermore , not all dogs do wag their tail and want to get petted , but I agree , many dogs stop being teritorial as soon as the fence opens