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by Gustav on 09 October 2010 - 22:10
Men didn't make the comment about the utlity, the founder and creator of the breed made that statement for what values he wanted placed on his creation. I don't think anybody feels that looks don't matter, but colors and looks should never be the primary criteria for breeding or else the utlity will be lessened. Some people get it, some don't, and some don't care. I try to understand the purpose of the breed from inception and replicate this. Afterall, its not my creation so I feel obligated to try to reproduce as closely as possible what the breed should be.Just me!
by Jenni78 on 09 October 2010 - 23:10
Windwalker, Red Sable....there are other people who agree about the total package. The problem is, those of us that do can't afford enough of "those" dogs to breed enough to make a difference in this game. It's too bad, but as long as breeding is ego/points driven, ugliness will prevail. Dogs who can work and have proper structure and great looks are NOT cheap! People don't want to cough up the money for them, so they rationalize that looks and structure and pigment don't matter.
Looks are not the main consideration, but if you're BREEDING, then shouldn't you only breed the absolute best in ALL aspects? That's my goal, every time. Of course everyone has opinions and not everyone would agree my dogs are good looking (some think my females are too masculine), but the general consensus and what they have produced is very good. That is NOT just my opinion, BTW. LOL
I have 2 bitches who are titled, V rated, KKL1, not 2!!!...and gorgeous in my opinion, but I'm out of money. LOL
Looks are not the main consideration, but if you're BREEDING, then shouldn't you only breed the absolute best in ALL aspects? That's my goal, every time. Of course everyone has opinions and not everyone would agree my dogs are good looking (some think my females are too masculine), but the general consensus and what they have produced is very good. That is NOT just my opinion, BTW. LOL
I have 2 bitches who are titled, V rated, KKL1, not 2!!!...and gorgeous in my opinion, but I'm out of money. LOL
by VonIsengard on 10 October 2010 - 00:10
Jenni, GREAT post!
I always wonder why people settle- settle for a pretty, fluffy dog with no backbone, or settle for a working machine that looks like a female coyote. WHY? Why, oh, why when you can take a little longer, save a little more money, and have a breeding dog with the whole package.
I always wonder why people settle- settle for a pretty, fluffy dog with no backbone, or settle for a working machine that looks like a female coyote. WHY? Why, oh, why when you can take a little longer, save a little more money, and have a breeding dog with the whole package.
by Jenni78 on 10 October 2010 - 00:10
I waited almost a decade. Didn't spend money on all those "pretty good" dogs who would've been "fine" or even "good." I spent a huge amount of time, devoted tons more time to research and putting out good "feelers" for females who might be able to be bought (the best ones are not for sale) and made sure that my criteria was understood. A long time went by- (so long, in fact, that I forgot I'd ordered a dog!) before I got a call about Capri. She could be purchased, but she was unproven and only 1.5yrs old. She had the temperament I wanted, I was assured she was a V quality dog, and would got KKl1 w/ease. Normal joints. She was mine if I didn't mind the risk that she was unproven. I gambled, and IMHO, I won the lottery.
Too many people, IMO, want to breed "big" right away. Think of the kennels who started out w/good intentions and a few careful litters per year and are now huge, commercial kennels. Standards start slipping when money is the motivator and pretty soon, in a few years, these formerly "working line breeders" have gone through the alphabet a couple times and are now largely supplying pets to the under-informed. Some are producing good looking dogs, but they have nothing to back it up, more often than not. One of my puppies is in a home w/a puppy from one such breeder. Super looking puppy, but doesn't have the bone my pup does (and that's a male- my pup is a female), the substance, the nerve, or the drive. Owner commented that my pup doesn't bark much whereas every sound sets the other pup off in a defensive barking fit. He's a nice pup, but not half the dog my pup is. I have never seen the pup in person- only pics. I'm hearing this from the owner, who loves them both. The owner is very nice but some of what he's telling me about this pup does not sound good. I hope he is not horribly disappointed when it comes time to take them to the club.
Picture a pyramid- ugly dogs who can't work are at the bottom- plenty of them around. Most are in the middle-subpar working ability or good working ability w/subpar looks/structure. This is where most people fall into the breeding trap. Then, you get to the top; top working abilty combined with super structure and great looks, pigment, secondary sex characteristics, substance, etc. THIS is where all breeders should be picking from, and these dogs are probably 1 in 500. If we all held those standards and only bred who truly was deserving of being bred, we would not be so inundated with mediocre GSDs that finding one possessing the total package would be like finding a needle in a haystack, as it is now.
Too many people, IMO, want to breed "big" right away. Think of the kennels who started out w/good intentions and a few careful litters per year and are now huge, commercial kennels. Standards start slipping when money is the motivator and pretty soon, in a few years, these formerly "working line breeders" have gone through the alphabet a couple times and are now largely supplying pets to the under-informed. Some are producing good looking dogs, but they have nothing to back it up, more often than not. One of my puppies is in a home w/a puppy from one such breeder. Super looking puppy, but doesn't have the bone my pup does (and that's a male- my pup is a female), the substance, the nerve, or the drive. Owner commented that my pup doesn't bark much whereas every sound sets the other pup off in a defensive barking fit. He's a nice pup, but not half the dog my pup is. I have never seen the pup in person- only pics. I'm hearing this from the owner, who loves them both. The owner is very nice but some of what he's telling me about this pup does not sound good. I hope he is not horribly disappointed when it comes time to take them to the club.
Picture a pyramid- ugly dogs who can't work are at the bottom- plenty of them around. Most are in the middle-subpar working ability or good working ability w/subpar looks/structure. This is where most people fall into the breeding trap. Then, you get to the top; top working abilty combined with super structure and great looks, pigment, secondary sex characteristics, substance, etc. THIS is where all breeders should be picking from, and these dogs are probably 1 in 500. If we all held those standards and only bred who truly was deserving of being bred, we would not be so inundated with mediocre GSDs that finding one possessing the total package would be like finding a needle in a haystack, as it is now.
by charlie319 on 10 October 2010 - 04:10
Hate to burst your bubble, but go look at the classifieds. It is big money to breed GSD's regardless of their capability, but to live off of it, and to be able to operate the type of cover to give the impression that you are a serious breeder requires industrial output and boutique pricing. This is where you see a lot of those $2K and obove dogs that couln't find their @** if it was on fire or defend their own plate of food. As long as they are even tempered, I have no problem with these dogs being bred, but it does offend that they are sold for such prices.
by Preston on 10 October 2010 - 05:10
The question of which is more desireable, butt ugly, long string bean nerve ending type working line GSDs that place highly in profung or georgeous showlines that barely pass the bitework but place high in zuchtschau, has already been decided.
The answer is the SV's official standard for the GSD breed. The participants and judges of profung have never once objected to this or tried to remove it, nor have the zuchtschau folks.
The task at hand is always as follows:
1-breed GSDs which are as close to the standard as possible while still being able to attain the desired use:
(pet, service, showdog, profung dog, PP, etc).
2-do so attempting to breed healthy, functional GSDs with clean joints (try and eliminate or minimize genetic flaws).
It would be better to have only one type of dog, but folks are too committed to profung and zuchtshow tangents. You can't put the genie back into the bottle, but folks can rededicate their breeding programs to be closer to the standard (in most cases they will pay a price for this and that is a lower placing GSD in either WL or SL competition, depending on which they are committed to and participate in.
The answer is the SV's official standard for the GSD breed. The participants and judges of profung have never once objected to this or tried to remove it, nor have the zuchtschau folks.
The task at hand is always as follows:
1-breed GSDs which are as close to the standard as possible while still being able to attain the desired use:
(pet, service, showdog, profung dog, PP, etc).
2-do so attempting to breed healthy, functional GSDs with clean joints (try and eliminate or minimize genetic flaws).
It would be better to have only one type of dog, but folks are too committed to profung and zuchtshow tangents. You can't put the genie back into the bottle, but folks can rededicate their breeding programs to be closer to the standard (in most cases they will pay a price for this and that is a lower placing GSD in either WL or SL competition, depending on which they are committed to and participate in.
by VonIsengard on 10 October 2010 - 05:10
First, Preston, I am so happy to see you back posting more regularly. I have that Mark linebred bitch back and I'd love your thoughts on pairing her.
Why do so many people refuse to accept that there is room for more than one type of GSD, physically and mentally? Why is a dog garbage if it doesn't obtain at least half a dozen SchH3s with all scores 280+? Why is a dog garbage if it gets the same work done a little slower than another dog? If the dog has correct structure, good health, stable nerves, and the ability to (genuinely) pass the SchH/KKL system, why isn't that ok? In the real world even a slightly bigger, slightly slower GSD is still a hell of a lot faster than the bad guy.
Charlie, you are absolutely right, in my eyes there is no reason for a puppy to cost $3500+, but many do. Certainly if I had a puppy that I thought had unacceptably soft character I would sell it quite cheap as a pet- and I know I'm not the only person who would. It's unjust to label every showline person as a crook peddling pansy dogs for obscene prices, just as it would be unfair or me to say every workingline person is selling land shark prey monsters to families as pets just because some of them do. Is either one right? Hell no, yet it's always the showline folks who bear the brunt of criticism.
Why do so many people refuse to accept that there is room for more than one type of GSD, physically and mentally? Why is a dog garbage if it doesn't obtain at least half a dozen SchH3s with all scores 280+? Why is a dog garbage if it gets the same work done a little slower than another dog? If the dog has correct structure, good health, stable nerves, and the ability to (genuinely) pass the SchH/KKL system, why isn't that ok? In the real world even a slightly bigger, slightly slower GSD is still a hell of a lot faster than the bad guy.
Charlie, you are absolutely right, in my eyes there is no reason for a puppy to cost $3500+, but many do. Certainly if I had a puppy that I thought had unacceptably soft character I would sell it quite cheap as a pet- and I know I'm not the only person who would. It's unjust to label every showline person as a crook peddling pansy dogs for obscene prices, just as it would be unfair or me to say every workingline person is selling land shark prey monsters to families as pets just because some of them do. Is either one right? Hell no, yet it's always the showline folks who bear the brunt of criticism.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 10 October 2010 - 06:10
Quote: Dogs who can work and have proper structure and great looks are NOT cheap!
But are you talking about a dog with a roached back, frog legs, and an apple head ? Many people here are. I have only seen pictures, but I do not remember you having this type of dog.
Quote: People don't want to cough up the money for them, so they rationalize that looks and structure and pigment don't matter.
It is the definition that matters. I have seen all manor of dogs with varying "structure". Some that worked and some that didn't. Most of those that did not, looked like the show line dogs. I do not care for the show line look, but that is simply because of what I have experienced over my lifetime. I do not care about pigment as a general rule, when I see red, I do not see the work. For me, if the dog works, and works at an above average ability, then I am interested. However, I also play the odds.
Quote: Looks are not the main consideration, but if you're BREEDING, then shouldn't you only breed the absolute best in ALL aspects?
Back to what the individual thinks is absolute best. There is no "standard" of what is "best". And that is what the problem is. For example, you were talking about breeding a dog that wrangles weasels. Is that an example of the "best" ?? Maybe, maybe not. There is no class that you can sign up for that will even begin to cover all the things that a dog should be, and where the bar should be for breeding as far as I know.
The other thing is that as you go along as a breeder, as a competitor in sports, your idea of "ideal" changes. Maybe not drastically, but again, that will vary from person to person.
Lets take the average person, with a regular life. Maybe they dabbled in sports, sorta tried herding, sorta tried this or that, and then want to breed their dog. They never actually finished anything, so all that you see is what a beginner sees. They will never actually see what the dog is. There are buttloads of these people out there. You see them in all different breeds touting their Sch1 ring1 HIC bla bla bla. All basic titles, easiest to get, and then proclaim a working litter. DUMB. : )
But people will still buy from them, as they know even less than this person. NOW this person is a breeder. It is a difficult subject to discuss, and I have done it many times with the basic title breeder. They get really really quiet, and in the end, will tell me that they do not need a title to know the quality of the dog. I have seen many of their dogs and the dog is average at best. What is never discussed is how quickly this person stops breeding, as other than repeat breedings, the quality of the dogs produced slowly but surely goes into the shitter.
But are you talking about a dog with a roached back, frog legs, and an apple head ? Many people here are. I have only seen pictures, but I do not remember you having this type of dog.
Quote: People don't want to cough up the money for them, so they rationalize that looks and structure and pigment don't matter.
It is the definition that matters. I have seen all manor of dogs with varying "structure". Some that worked and some that didn't. Most of those that did not, looked like the show line dogs. I do not care for the show line look, but that is simply because of what I have experienced over my lifetime. I do not care about pigment as a general rule, when I see red, I do not see the work. For me, if the dog works, and works at an above average ability, then I am interested. However, I also play the odds.
Quote: Looks are not the main consideration, but if you're BREEDING, then shouldn't you only breed the absolute best in ALL aspects?
Back to what the individual thinks is absolute best. There is no "standard" of what is "best". And that is what the problem is. For example, you were talking about breeding a dog that wrangles weasels. Is that an example of the "best" ?? Maybe, maybe not. There is no class that you can sign up for that will even begin to cover all the things that a dog should be, and where the bar should be for breeding as far as I know.
The other thing is that as you go along as a breeder, as a competitor in sports, your idea of "ideal" changes. Maybe not drastically, but again, that will vary from person to person.
Lets take the average person, with a regular life. Maybe they dabbled in sports, sorta tried herding, sorta tried this or that, and then want to breed their dog. They never actually finished anything, so all that you see is what a beginner sees. They will never actually see what the dog is. There are buttloads of these people out there. You see them in all different breeds touting their Sch1 ring1 HIC bla bla bla. All basic titles, easiest to get, and then proclaim a working litter. DUMB. : )
But people will still buy from them, as they know even less than this person. NOW this person is a breeder. It is a difficult subject to discuss, and I have done it many times with the basic title breeder. They get really really quiet, and in the end, will tell me that they do not need a title to know the quality of the dog. I have seen many of their dogs and the dog is average at best. What is never discussed is how quickly this person stops breeding, as other than repeat breedings, the quality of the dogs produced slowly but surely goes into the shitter.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 10 October 2010 - 06:10
I stopped because you said the same thing in the next post. Oooops.
by Prager on 10 October 2010 - 16:10
Then Jeff even so I somewhat agree with you since SchH is the main game in town but I would get off the high SchH horse and explain how do you response to my statement from another thread: that dogs who reached highest level of anything are usually extreme dogs and breeding for extreme is what is really bad for GSD.That is how top SchH dogs are ruining the breed. Extreme drive, usually poor hips background, poor elbows background, bred for performance based on prey, with disregard of courage under threat, territoriality, longevity, bred to being numb to sudden stimulus like gun fire,....and I can keep going on and on and on...
GSD is a versatile dog and should perform well in any dog related field. But GSD must not be bred for singular, narrow purpose of any field. That is destruction of the breed.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
GSD is a versatile dog and should perform well in any dog related field. But GSD must not be bred for singular, narrow purpose of any field. That is destruction of the breed.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
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