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by Sunsilver on 23 November 2010 - 14:11
Give as many variations of the standard as you wish, there is only one CORRECT standard.....end of.
Bazza, just wanted to point out that the standard is not carved in stone: terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2009/08/counterfeit-collies-and-transvestite.html
[quote] It is all laughable nonsense. And it becomes nonsense on stilts when people begin to talk about "the standard" as if it were a sacred text delivered to Moses on the Mount.
In fact, is there anything standard about "the standard?" I defy you to find a single canine standard that is more than 20 years old that has not been changed at least once. [/quote]
There's a lot in the above linked article that's worth paying attention to:
Bazza, just wanted to point out that the standard is not carved in stone: terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2009/08/counterfeit-collies-and-transvestite.html
[quote] It is all laughable nonsense. And it becomes nonsense on stilts when people begin to talk about "the standard" as if it were a sacred text delivered to Moses on the Mount.
In fact, is there anything standard about "the standard?" I defy you to find a single canine standard that is more than 20 years old that has not been changed at least once. [/quote]
There's a lot in the above linked article that's worth paying attention to:
And then there is the little matter that the standard is not the same from one country to another, or one registry to another. So what is so "standard" about the standard?
Ironically, what is NOT part of any standard in the U.K. or the U.S., is a requirement that the dog actually be a proven worker in the field. That, apparently is not "the standard." That function is not required for the rosette. A black nose, is a "Yes," but working a dog to the task it was bred for is a "No."
And so we come back to the real meaning of "form follows function" as used by academics in the dog world.
For these folks the "form" being referred to seems to be a paper form showing the pedigree of the animal being displayed.
And "the function" these people are referring to is either the rosette from a show judge, or the cash to be gotten from a prospective dog-buyer.
Form follows function, indeed!
by Abby Normal on 23 November 2010 - 18:11
The correct proportions of height to length and corresponding length of the leg bones results in a ground-eating gait that is low to the ground and imparts an impression of effortless progression. With his head thrust forward and a slightly raised tail, a balanced and even trotter will have a topline that falls in moderate curves from the tip of the ears over the neck and level back through the tip of the tail.
There are plenty of references to level, particularly when in movement. Uber Land was right to draw attention to the back of the VA8 dog, and pretty much all the rest of the dogs at the Sieger to determine that they do not have a 'level' back in movement, far from it, and that they do indeed appear to be a representation of the illustration of a 'roach backed' dog in movement. But that's an old argument........
This thread is about the topline of the dog, and changes to the standard, it would be great if someone actually knew what those changes were, and, as Uber Land said, whether they are to accommodate the roach or try and correct it.
There are plenty of references to level, particularly when in movement. Uber Land was right to draw attention to the back of the VA8 dog, and pretty much all the rest of the dogs at the Sieger to determine that they do not have a 'level' back in movement, far from it, and that they do indeed appear to be a representation of the illustration of a 'roach backed' dog in movement. But that's an old argument........
This thread is about the topline of the dog, and changes to the standard, it would be great if someone actually knew what those changes were, and, as Uber Land said, whether they are to accommodate the roach or try and correct it.
by AandA on 24 November 2010 - 13:11
"BODY : The upper line runs, without any visible break, from the set-on of the neck over the well defined withers and over the back very slightly sloping to the horizontal line, onto the gradually slanting rump."
I read this as the back slopes with reference to the horizontal and not as a sloping horizontal line...??
AandA
I read this as the back slopes with reference to the horizontal and not as a sloping horizontal line...??
AandA
by Ibrahim on 24 November 2010 - 13:11
Yes as AandA said, back true line is sloping slightly seen and compared to a datum which is an imaginary horizontal line touching the withers, as you move your eye toward the other end of the back the difference space between the sloping back and the horizontal increases and becomes apparent, then the croup has a greater slope to the horizontal (23 degrees sloping angle). This is my understanding of the clause.
Ibrahim
Ibrahim
by jamesfountain98 on 24 November 2010 - 14:11
@sunsilver, there are several breeds who's standards have not changed one time. All the coon dog breeds (redbone, black and tand, blue tick, etc), siberian husky, greyhound, alaskan malamutes,
Breeds that kept their distance from the confirmation ring and bred for performance seem to overal be healthier and less discussion about the variations in the look of the dog.
IT'S ALL ABOUT PERFORMANCE.
If one look, frame, or confirmation is more suitable for a job, prove it on the field, not the show ring. Just as Nature choses correct confirmation through survival of the fittest or the best perfomance lives. We should use the same ideology in the domestic realm.
Breeds that kept their distance from the confirmation ring and bred for performance seem to overal be healthier and less discussion about the variations in the look of the dog.
IT'S ALL ABOUT PERFORMANCE.
If one look, frame, or confirmation is more suitable for a job, prove it on the field, not the show ring. Just as Nature choses correct confirmation through survival of the fittest or the best perfomance lives. We should use the same ideology in the domestic realm.
by Abby Normal on 24 November 2010 - 15:11
jamesfountain98
Can't argue with that.
by Rik on 24 November 2010 - 16:11
the interpretation of the standard will always be subjective.
For me, it is a wither higher than and sloping into a straight back.In both standing and movement.
No "roach", no hammock backs
JMO.
Rik
For me, it is a wither higher than and sloping into a straight back.In both standing and movement.
No "roach", no hammock backs
JMO.
Rik
by bazza on 24 November 2010 - 16:11
The German Shepherd Dog...A Genetic History of the Breed....Malcolm B Willis, page 33 Proportions/body. " The back should SLOPE slightly from front to back but should not be excessive as seen in the USA.... That'll do for me thanks!!! Carry on with your debate guys, I've read enough, thanks!!
by Abby Normal on 24 November 2010 - 17:11
I would just like to know what the 'accepted change to the topline' actually IS !
(AND AMENDMENT IN THE SHAPE OF THE TOP LINE)
...
The amendment about the top
line was accepted.
(AND AMENDMENT IN THE SHAPE OF THE TOP LINE)
...
The amendment about the top
line was accepted.
by noddi on 24 November 2010 - 19:11
hiya AbbyNormal.i would like an answer to that question also.To Bazza,i agree with yu.Carole S.
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