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by Mackenzie on 13 September 2011 - 05:09
Good post Shirley and congratulations on taking the plunge. You have clearly benefited from the experience and appreciated the enjoyment that goes with it. It is also pleasing and encouraging to note your comments on the puppies characters. Well done and thankyou for taking the time to explain, I hope that others follow this example.
Mackenzie
Mackenzie
by NO FEAR on 13 September 2011 - 09:09
Shirley & all
This is the last post on this matter with me as I dont want to derail the thread.I,m not saying that Ludwig is a bad dog ! he is just not a top winning show dog. This may not sit too well with some people & indeed with your experience in the breed you know it in your heart that this is true.The dog won at SKC under an "All rounder".Excellent , maybe we need more of them? Mark3 said that the dog is doing well in Ireland which in many ways I wish was true but it is obviously not the case.Just dont like people using misleading information to support a case.I wish the owners & indeed the breeders all the best with him for the future & congratulate them for what they are trying to achieve but like I said before I beleive it is time to openly admit show dogs are not working dogs & vice versa
This is the last post on this matter with me as I dont want to derail the thread.I,m not saying that Ludwig is a bad dog ! he is just not a top winning show dog. This may not sit too well with some people & indeed with your experience in the breed you know it in your heart that this is true.The dog won at SKC under an "All rounder".Excellent , maybe we need more of them? Mark3 said that the dog is doing well in Ireland which in many ways I wish was true but it is obviously not the case.Just dont like people using misleading information to support a case.I wish the owners & indeed the breeders all the best with him for the future & congratulate them for what they are trying to achieve but like I said before I beleive it is time to openly admit show dogs are not working dogs & vice versa
by Mackenzie on 13 September 2011 - 10:09
No Fear, what you have to come to terms with is that we have one breed and not two. The thing is that both side have to work to bring each closer to the other and that is what counts. If it were not for the show people would we continue to see weakening characters, lack of workability, oversize and unsoundness in such numbers? Do you and the show people really want to see more of this?
Mackenzie
Mackenzie
by Gustav on 13 September 2011 - 12:09
Mackensie,
First, I have to say I applaud Shirley and her goals, and that is sincere....having said that you have to really absorb what she said. She prefers the show world and her objectives have to be colored by this admission. Here's the Coors cold facts....there are workinglines with excellent working structure. The current show world does NOT promote working structure. The show world promotes cosmetic structure that in many cases is a drag on working function. The breed is a working breed....supposedly. You have superb working dogs with good structure, but you have very few show structure with top working credentials. The problem with this breed is which engine is driving the breed...work functionality or show appearance? The current show dogs look a lot like the progenitors, (Europe and United States), big, bloated, slow, privileged, pretty, and vain. Our dogs are often a reflection of ourselves. And just like special interests are not going to let our societies change, and the people involved don't want to make the sacrifice, the breed is in the same condition; and it is symptomatic of our society. The show world should be judging the dogs on working structure and not cosmetic structure, but most show breeders place 20% of their knowledge and resources on working, and 80% on catering to producing acceptable show specimen in the cosmetic world. So the reality of today in this breed is, AND READ THIS CAREFULLY, the German Shepherd by numbers is more of a SHOW breed than a WORKING breed. That's the reality, the mentality, the will of majority of breeders, and the evolution of the breed in the past 50 years. Plain and Simple....There are still some breeders that place the priorites of the origin of the breed first, BUT most breeders place what they LIKE ahead of the greater good of the breed.
First, I have to say I applaud Shirley and her goals, and that is sincere....having said that you have to really absorb what she said. She prefers the show world and her objectives have to be colored by this admission. Here's the Coors cold facts....there are workinglines with excellent working structure. The current show world does NOT promote working structure. The show world promotes cosmetic structure that in many cases is a drag on working function. The breed is a working breed....supposedly. You have superb working dogs with good structure, but you have very few show structure with top working credentials. The problem with this breed is which engine is driving the breed...work functionality or show appearance? The current show dogs look a lot like the progenitors, (Europe and United States), big, bloated, slow, privileged, pretty, and vain. Our dogs are often a reflection of ourselves. And just like special interests are not going to let our societies change, and the people involved don't want to make the sacrifice, the breed is in the same condition; and it is symptomatic of our society. The show world should be judging the dogs on working structure and not cosmetic structure, but most show breeders place 20% of their knowledge and resources on working, and 80% on catering to producing acceptable show specimen in the cosmetic world. So the reality of today in this breed is, AND READ THIS CAREFULLY, the German Shepherd by numbers is more of a SHOW breed than a WORKING breed. That's the reality, the mentality, the will of majority of breeders, and the evolution of the breed in the past 50 years. Plain and Simple....There are still some breeders that place the priorites of the origin of the breed first, BUT most breeders place what they LIKE ahead of the greater good of the breed.
by judron55 on 13 September 2011 - 12:09
Very well said, Gustav...very well said!
by Smiley on 13 September 2011 - 12:09
I keep hearing people say "working line structure" for dogs that just comepte in sport competition like schutzhund. Seriously. Why the heck is that considered working structure? Please educate me? They attack a person a couple times and need to run across a field to get them, correct?
I am just floored. To me, the ONLY dogs that have working structure are dogs that are working sheepdogs (not dogs who simply title in sheep trials). It is the demand placed on these dogs..day in and day out and not just for a short period to trial. They must be incredibly sound mentally and physically and incredbily biddable.
If these dogs are not structurally correct than they will not hold up to their job of herding through all weather and distances.
To say that "sport" dogs possess the real "working dog structure" over "show dogs" seems very laughable to me as someone who is new and looking in from the outside.
I think both sport dogs and show dogs are nothing compared to working sheepdogs. So to me, with these two groups...it is like "the pot calling the kettle black"!!
Neither of these camps should be the ideal for working structure and work ethic. It should be the true herding dog. From all my research, a good herding dog should have the same character and protection ability as a "sport" dog. They may not look like "show" dogs but their structure will just show you what is and is not truly necessary ....
Please, we must not forget the true heritage of the breed. If more people bred to good working sheepdogs (that could pass the courage test that was removed, etc) than you would see a very different look in our dogs.
The more I research, the more I am becoming very firm in my conviction regarding these sheepdogs. The sad thing is...you don't even see these dogs in competition as farmers have no use for ribbons.
I am just floored. To me, the ONLY dogs that have working structure are dogs that are working sheepdogs (not dogs who simply title in sheep trials). It is the demand placed on these dogs..day in and day out and not just for a short period to trial. They must be incredibly sound mentally and physically and incredbily biddable.
If these dogs are not structurally correct than they will not hold up to their job of herding through all weather and distances.
To say that "sport" dogs possess the real "working dog structure" over "show dogs" seems very laughable to me as someone who is new and looking in from the outside.
I think both sport dogs and show dogs are nothing compared to working sheepdogs. So to me, with these two groups...it is like "the pot calling the kettle black"!!
Neither of these camps should be the ideal for working structure and work ethic. It should be the true herding dog. From all my research, a good herding dog should have the same character and protection ability as a "sport" dog. They may not look like "show" dogs but their structure will just show you what is and is not truly necessary ....
Please, we must not forget the true heritage of the breed. If more people bred to good working sheepdogs (that could pass the courage test that was removed, etc) than you would see a very different look in our dogs.
The more I research, the more I am becoming very firm in my conviction regarding these sheepdogs. The sad thing is...you don't even see these dogs in competition as farmers have no use for ribbons.
by Donnerstorm on 13 September 2011 - 12:09
Smiley why is the herding dog the only working dog? What about the PSD dogs? They work all day in various conditions, and they do need correct structure to last very long? What about the PP dog, the service dog? you do realize that all of those are working dogs? I have seen you use that example a couple of times just wondering why you are placing the herding dog as the only working dog?
by mollyandjack on 13 September 2011 - 13:09
K, this is just one of my pet peeves ;-) The German Shepherd Dog is not a sheepdog. It is the dog of a German Shepherd (a person). It was bred to do a variety of tasks. One of those tasks involved herding sheep. I do like to see GSDs doing herding/tending and being farmdogs and I agree somewhat about Schutzhund not testing enough for working structure, but they should be so much more than a sheepdog. My collie can herd sheep all day.
by Smiley on 13 September 2011 - 13:09
Hi, guys! Thanks for the discussion!
Donnerstorm- I agree with you 100% on service dogs and patrol dogs!
I just feel that a GSD needs to be in a profession where they truly are worked every day to determine what is correct working structure. I do not think "sport" or "show" dogs should be the be all, end all for determining correct structure like people are saying. I just, respectfully, agree to disagree with that thinking!
Mollyandjack- I agree that a GSD should be versatile and have proper courage and temperament. That is a given. My only complaint is saying that sport and/or show dogs should be held as the ideal for conformation. A proper sheepdog should possess all of the above AND be able to do ScH work.
As far as I know, the GSD was a sheepdog from its inception and evolved into other professions when they realized that the demand for sheepdogs was limited. Please correct me if I am wrong though!!
Donnerstorm- I agree with you 100% on service dogs and patrol dogs!
I just feel that a GSD needs to be in a profession where they truly are worked every day to determine what is correct working structure. I do not think "sport" or "show" dogs should be the be all, end all for determining correct structure like people are saying. I just, respectfully, agree to disagree with that thinking!
Mollyandjack- I agree that a GSD should be versatile and have proper courage and temperament. That is a given. My only complaint is saying that sport and/or show dogs should be held as the ideal for conformation. A proper sheepdog should possess all of the above AND be able to do ScH work.
As far as I know, the GSD was a sheepdog from its inception and evolved into other professions when they realized that the demand for sheepdogs was limited. Please correct me if I am wrong though!!
by Gustav on 13 September 2011 - 13:09
Smiley, I breed dogs that are capable of police service work, Search and Rescue, and have been for years. Do you consider those vocations working???? Never said one blasted thing about sport purposely!!!!!! Read!!!!
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