Schutzhunds obsession with extreme prey drive. - Page 8

......but that wasn't the question.

My point that was cut off is that prey drive is great but without a strong drive for  territorial dominance (control of the situation in close surrounding, the GSD's territory and personal space) and ability to properly assess risk and react appropriately, prey drive is insufficient to determine correct quality.  And there is reason to believe that Sch is now too obsessed with prey drive and its amplification and focus in training as a substitute for correct territorial dominance and raw courage to fight when appropriate.  The GSDs that hit the sleeve the hardest are either those that understand that the helper is playing the role of an enemy and attacker and that they must play their role with approriate force necessary to win the fight and they do this to please their master, or whom really believe the helper is a bad person and are are attacking for real with appropriate force to overpower the handler.  Dogs with extreme prey drive that have little territorial dominance and reasoning ability for assessing different levels of risk, can be trained to channel their prey drive to hit the sleeve and deliver a maximun bite with deep and strong grip, but these prey monsters often cannot make good 24/7 in home family protectors.  This is why a significant number of GSDs which are top sch competitors live in their kennel runs and not in the home, and are agitated before each trial in order to bring their prey drive to an edge.

Conclusion, there are many individual and breeder exceptions, but it is fair to conclude that the sport of sch has become so highly competitive that a significant number of WL dogs which have been bred and trained for it have become bottlenecked through selective breeding with too much prey drive at the expense of a dog with high territorial dominance, and very good reasoning ability, which is required for the preferred working temperament that Von Stephanitz required.  His dogs were "thinking and reasoning" GSDs, docile at the end of the day and very relaxed and easy going around farm animals and other pets (there are photos of them laying next to baby deer and rabbits).  His GSD were not hyper and did not have extreme prey drive that too many competitive lines of WL GSD have today.

Prey drive is great if properly balanced with good territorial domionance and good reasoning ability.  I know a fair amount about the dogs behind YellowRoses GSD and bought some from the same source.  She always had some great looking GSDs from the old bloodlines before they were bifurcated, thus her dogs looked good and carried some of the best GSD temperament one could ever find, GSDs with courage and reasoning ability, high territorial dominance as well as moderate prey drive too. 

Like it or not Busecker Schloss and Haus Beck produced many dogs who excelled in profung and zuchtschau too cioming from the same litters at times too. That was the way it used to be in Geramny and Europe before the early  1980's when the bifurcation into spearate breding for WL and SL began to emerge, and this occurrred because of the appearance on world markets and more and more extreme competition due to the expansion of the number of SV clubs and breeeders in Europe and Germany. 

IMO both profung and zuchtschau competition has become far too extreme forcing out the more balanced correct to the whole FCI standard type GSD.  Only through changes in the judging and a committment to a thinking and reasoning GSD with natural territorial dominance and balanced (not extreme) structure like was typical in the early 1980's when roach back were not allowed by Dr. Rummel.

While I agree with much of what you say Preston, the last thing I want is a hyper dog, but I do like strong prey drive, in addition to other qualities that should be in no way be neglected. Just wish other people could get around equating prey drive with hectic or hyper behavior, or obsessive desire for toys. That's no better than stating that all defense is fear based. Fear is only one of the motivations that can push defensive behavior.

preston how can you tell between a strong territoral dominant dog and a fearful territoral dog that is doing it out of fear?

daryleret, you make a good point.  To me the ideal choice for a GSD that would win in profung competition has very high prey drive, total soundness, is calm in general, and has very strong territorial dominance, an extreme aggression reaction when appropriate and good reasoning ability (clear on/off switch). Nowdays these dogs often will place back aways with prey monsters which are also hyperactive scoring higher.  To me this is not the best choice for the GSDs for breeding.  Unless one accepts that the breed must be completely bigfurcated into different use lines such as perimeter dogs, family protectors/pets, police dogs, military dogs, drug dogs, therapyy dogs, etc.  My understanding was that Von Stephanitz did not want any bifurcation and was deeply committed to a single GSD with good conformation and correct temperament. I don't know what the answer is because folks are so deeply committed to winning in profung and zuchtschau and the extremes required to now win are quite far apart from each other and other types of special use GSDs too in many cases.  Overall it may be that the Belgian SV breeders are producing the best compromise and closer to what Von Stephanitz would have preferred from what I hear lately, but I'm sure there are many other kebnnels in Europe and elsewhere too.

destiny4u, a good question. I had a spook once for a brief time that was an extreme in-home protector.  He lived inside the home 24/7 and everything was a threat.  He seemed noticeably afraid and was shy of people, but would also become very aggressive at the drop of a hat to anyone coming in, and when tested with a helper in a padded suit would never quit even when flanked or struck to the loin with a stick (almost like he would have a psychomotor seizure and go nuts on the helper, he also bit me once in the process). He would never back down from anyone but he was a real liability, had no reasoning or soundness (I never would have trusted him around kids or friends).  A farmer I knew wanted him so I let him have him and he lived out a normal life there as the only pet and the kids had left home. He could be very aggressive but it was out of fear and he had no desire to patrol our backyard inside the fence, he just wanted to stay inside.  He was not good in obediance, was shy around people, and was unsound. The GSDs that I have had with strong territorial dominance were sound, calm and did not ever feel threatened and they were friendly to neighbors and kids we invited in. They did not bark or alert unless they sensed a real threat which was infrequent but they showed a desire to patrol their territory and stay in control but were not on the aggressive edge all the time like that dog. They knew what a real threat was and responded progressively and appropriately to increasing threats. This dog didn't want to stay in control of the territory, he just wanted to defend himself with aggression at any stranger or guest, noise or stimulus and seemed to view every stimulus as a threat. He was nervous and on edge all the time except when sleeping.  Around people on a leash his first tendency was to back up a bit with his tail and head down and then smile at them followed by mild growling (then if not corrected or controlled he could bite). When corrected, he would stop but was never friendly to other people. He was sound as an 8 week old puppy but did not develop normally. Looking back now he may have developed a thyroid disorder or other health problem or just had bad genes which can happen sometimes. The lines he came from did have occasional spooks.  He was an American Shepherd and that convinced me to go to and stay with SV german imports.

Damn Preston....where have you been....its been lonely!!!....lol

I disagree that this was a good dog.  A dog that bites out of fear is a time bomb.  Every time I hear someone brag about how they have (or used to have) a dog that would be great in this sport my skin starts to itch.  Really??  Don't tell me, show me.  How much dog would be left after you started to put in the rules?  As you say, this dog would lay into you and not let go, sure he wouldn't let go, he couldn't.  In his mind, letting go was a matter of life or death, if he released he was no longer in control, it's fight or flight.  I'm guessing tracking would have been difficult and obedience in general would not have been pretty.  Control work in the C phase would have probably destroyed any of the magnificent power you seem to think he had.

IMO your definition of territorial dominance has no bearing on a dog's ability to work and perform the 3 phases on neutral ground.  Case in point, the long bite.  An out of balance dog with too much defense will never have the speed or desire to pursue the helper over a long distance and in the case of the "old" way the courage test was done, probably would have frozen and left through the back door.  Making a dog bite is never the answer.

Duderino, a spook is never a good GSD and either PTS or placed in a controlled safe environment. Yes, they are a huge liability and usually unhappy too. If one wants to know what kind of dog makes a current sch winner or high placing GSD and where to acquire one, it is best talk to those who dominate this very competitive sport.  If one wants a 24/7 pet and good natural home protector with no training, ask someone with a lot of experience in acquiring them or breeding them.  If one wants to know what makes a good police Dog and where to acquire one, ask someone who trains them or handles them, etc. The GSD breed has become very bifurcated depending on the specialized use of the dog and each area is different.

I know for myself for a family protector that lives in the house 24/7 and is around kids, neighbors, relatives and friends, the dog must be calm and stable, easy going around these folks, have good territorial dominance drive, and the ability to properly assess theats via reasoning ability and respond appropriately, must be intelligent, and must be able to quickly exhibit extreme courage and an aggressive response in a maximum threat situation.  Prey level for me is open as long as the dog has these other traits. GSDs with high prey that I have had in the past were more difficult to raise the first year and went through a lot more bones.  After that not much difference.

What I do know for sure is that before the 1980's the SV GSD breed was not bifurcated like it is now in Germany and Europe. Profung competitors came from the same litters as zuchtschau dogs in many cases and usually had a better balance of drives with a natural territorial dominance. 

I am not a sch competitor but I have been told that in order to win, one must have a GSD that has very high prey drive and high trainability, along with ability to do good bitework. Nowdays these sch winners are specially bred dogs that do not typically come from the same litters as top winning zuchtschau dogs and usually don't live in the house 24/7 with families, although there are exceptions.  Perhaps it must necessarily be this way because of the breeds world wide popularity and such extreme competition in profung and zuchtschau.  But I think it would be more in line with Von Stephanitz expected if they were bred and selected for a better balance the way they were before the early 1980's.

was just curious where zuchtschau dogs come from? like their backround? id want to avoid them for future