Hi All
This is a fantastic thread.
I really enjoyed reading  as anything to do with the G S D really fascinates me.

I sincerly hope this " DISCUSSION PAPER ON THE STRUCTURE OF THE GSD ", by
Mr. Louis Donald , an SV Judge, will help enlighten us towards a better understanding of the issue.
I for one have benifited tremendously from it as I now have a better understanding on various issues in the breed.

Mr. Louis Donald is my mentor, and is most knowledgeable in the breed.
His contribution to the breed in Australia is unquestionable.
You just have to see the quality of their dogs, and their judges to be aware how far they have come.
While many have contributed,few have written such Papers.

http://www.gdscouncilaustralia.org/louis_donald_article.pdf

Hello Sonora,

I get this message when I try to open the link you provided:

Oops! Google Chrome could not find www.gdscouncilaustralia.org

Ibrahim

http://www.gsdcouncilaustralia.org/articles.htm


Use the above link to the required "Discussion Paper" it is a large file which is why you might be having problems , I did so, went to the articles page and then to the link required .
It is a very good article.
John Ward

Thanks John I did and it worked, as a matter of fact I did read it before though. Thanks a lot.

Ibrahim

Abby/Pod the submission form should be signed prior to xray therefore you are actualy signing an agreement that the plates are submitted regardless of potential problems with the hips or elbows - and the descision to submit is taken out of your hands, vets can be fined for not submitting. The vet I use is not the only vet in the UK that follows procedures there are also others. So if I was you both next time you have a dog requiring xrays for submission I would change vets.

Re orthopeadic problems if I wish to know something then I will ask the relevant people with the expertise, hence when a puppy purchaser of a well known breeder was banding around there was a genetic problem in the spine of her dog as told by her vet I asked an Ortho vet I know to be told there is no such term or condition used in veterinary orthopeadics - so who do I believe the pup owners vet or the specialist? obvious really the 'specialist' hence the relevant information was passed onto the breeder.

Abby the GSD population in the UK as been in decline for a long time you no longer see yearly registrations of 24,000+ more like 14,000 - 15,000 some years less, and I will state again for the first 6yrs of the elbow scheme apart from the odd breeder it was those that went into pet homes that were scored, even now re hips there are as many dogs.bitchs scored that are in pet homes as there are breeding stock.

regarding the article if I wish to view relevent research current and up to date I will use a CU login and gain access to published material in veterinary literature.

as you state above this is not evidence based untill it is I do not see the point in reading - show me evidence based information and I will read.

Wildmoor, I do agree that puplished papers are a tremendous resource for learning and gathering information.... but really, are you saying that that is the only one you value?!  How do you think research projects that culminate in publication get started?  Well, it's often from ideas such as this.  It takes someone with a bit of forethought and a keen interest in the health of dogs to stir up interest and put in the necessary work.  I find it quite shocking and sad that you state you see no point in reading this article.

Does it not set even a little alarm bell ringing when a specialist presents credible information that might link extreme conformation with a serious orthopaedic problem?  I suggest that it would be better for the breed not to take the head-in-sand approach.

there is no evidence in the paper it is one persons view, I base my opinions on evidence based research, it is not about putting head in sand it is about taking on board relevant research show me evidence, and yes coming from an acedemic background and a profession that is not just based on theory but evidence based research that is what I value most
how many people actually re xray dogs at an older age, very few
if my dogs structure was pertaining to any health issues then I would be the first to state, yes his croup is too steep for my personal preference but no dog is perfect as no human, my personal prefence on structure is that of my Lothar son but his temp was too sharp, and his feet were cat like again no dog is perfect - if I could have my current dogs temp/character and colour in the body of my Lothar son that would be my ideal! but not somebody elses

"Re orthopeadic problems if I wish to know something then I will ask the relevant people with the expertise, hence when a puppy purchaser of a well known breeder was banding around there was a genetic problem in the spine of her dog as told by her vet I asked an Ortho vet I know to be told there is no such term or condition used in veterinary orthopeadics - so who do I believe the pup owners vet or the specialist? obvious really the 'specialist' hence the relevant information was passed onto the breeder."


Another anecdote Wildmoor.  I passed over this para previously as I didn't understand why you included it.  Are you using this as an analogy to Mr Guilliard?  If so, you are entirely wrong to suggest he is not qualified to write in the field of orthopaedics.


ETA:  He is a published author.  Please see here - http://www.mikeguilliard.co.uk/id11.html

"if my dogs structure was pertaining to any health issues then I would be the first to state, yes his croup is too steep for my personal preference "

I think Wildmoor, you have the tendency of attributing too much to importance to individual cases (anecdotes).  If you look for direct cause, in terms of conformation, in every individual that show a problem, you will not find what you are looking for and you may actually be thrown seriously off track.  This is where articles such as this under discussion are of such importance in bringing attention to trends that may have a proveable correlation.  And this can only be achieved with sufficient data, hopefully with the co-oporation of breeders and owners.