Origin of Arched Back - Page 17

Thank you, Mr. Donald, for a very informative, scholarly article about GSD structure. I have wanted a resource like this for a long, long time, as so much of what breeders and show people say about structure is either myth, fad or hearsay!

Now, finally, we have the TRUTH from someone who understands the relationship between structure and function!

I enjoyed reading the various comments in relation to the back and in the context of my paper its affect on the wither.

I appreciated very much the comment that people should rely on statements made by suitably trained and educated 'academics' but it is important to appreciate too that in some areas a person who has spent 50 odd years heavily involved with a single breed and putting aside general everyday exposure in that time reading every piece of literature that has been written on that breed and dogs in general has an understanding and a knowledge that may not be known or fully understood by an academic especially a junior one. Due to my experience in the breed I think I have earned some qualifications that warrant some degree of consideration for what I may have to say or write.

I actually touch on this subject in the paper 'if one was to read it' - that is, I state that I offer a well considered and educated opinion for the reader to consider and from that opinion I suggest the reader apply their own thought processes, draw their own conclusions and not simply accept what I have said must be fact.

In the context of the back, this is a paper for the cerebrally inclined who want to learn as much as they can about the German Shepherd Dog, enjoy being stimulated by the challenge of a controversial opinion on a controversial subject and then thinking it through for themselves. I just make this point - when I wrote this particular paper [ I have written many ] I was aware that very little if anything had been written by anyone, including 'academics,' on the topic of the relative rise and curvature to the back in the German Shepherd Dog - have a search of the web and material in bookshops and you will find that this is a fact. Whilst many people including dog judges have expressed comment on it, both good and bad, from my research nothing of any real explanatory significance has been written on this highly controversial and evolving subject.

You will find references to it on the web such as people observing the rise/curve/roach/peak/arch and having an opinion on it but nothing really meaningful in relation to what has actually happened to the spine, when it first started, where it came from in a genetic sense, its relativity to the original and later amended standards and most importantly what effect this actually has on the dog particularly when trotting which is the German Shepherd Dogs primary mode of movement when working sheep.

As a matter of interest, I have an opinion on how it impacts negatively on the dog when it is in the engagement phase of protective/combative work but I refrained from doing so as this is not my area of expertise mainly because the sport is not allowed in Australia.

As a matter of interest I did not have a full 'anatomical understanding' of this issue and it's effect on the wither until I did the research and the work and having determined my theories and conclusions I passed them by by a number of 'veterinarians of note' and they all concurred with my findings and welcomed as 'well overdue' the release of the paper to the public. As a matter of interest the German Shepherd Dog League of the UK thought so much of the paper that they have printed it as a booklet and it is being launched for sale by them at Crufts this year. That is a rare and significant event for such an esteemed breed club.

In closing I would add that much of the underlying core material in relation to the back was based on the work of Dr Curtis Brown, Dr Walter Gorrieri and many others who are eminent in their field and this is acknowledged by me in my paper. I liked the comment that writings such as this give the lead to academics because without such leads very little would be done at that level on such a topic. I also add that you might be waiting a long time to read material on topics such as this if you only read material originated by and written by academics and on this score I make the point that with all due respect to academics it can be a mistake to believe that what they say must be right simply because they are acknowledged as being an academic!

Linda Shaw has a new article about this topic, too....

http://www.shawlein.com/2012/01/02/the-back-spine-part-1/

Christine

This week, I saw a link on Yahoo that reported scientists had finally determined that dogs can pick up on human emotions.

This, of course, makes those of us who know dogs go 'DUH! What took them so long to figure this out?'

And then there are the academics who are still arguing over whether dogs even HAVE emotions themselves....

Yup, I have good reason not to trust academics who are not also experienced dog people!


ETA: I just checked out Linda Shaw's new website! WOW! What a wonderful resource, especially the book pages! That lady is a national treasure!

I just found a link to a book I read as a child, about the founding of the Seeing Eye. It's called Dogs Against Darkness, and a copy of it in good condition is selling for $100!!

Thanks for your very interesting comments on the thread.

I found the paper very engaging and thought provoking, and whilst it cemented many of my views it also made me re-think some other areas as being less significant than I had previously thought.

Will you be publishing your opinions of the effects of the modern structure in the engagement phase in protection work in any articles?

I was delighted to hear that this will be on sale at Crufts, and that the GSDL are promoting it.

Blackthorn, thank you for that link too, I look forward to seeing Part 2.

Thanks for your comments Abby Normal.

Glad you liked my paper on the structure of the GSD - it is a bit of a hard grind to read in parts and this is because there are areas such as the wither that can not be explained in detail simply. There are many people who are quite happy to be told 'if the highest point of the back is higher than the highest point of the wither the dog will fall on the forehand'.

They accept this on the basis that this is what happens [ if the dog is running on a loose lead and there is another story ] but there are many people who want to understand why this happens and this is in part what motivated me to write the paper, to explain these issues as best I could.

My observation incidentally is that the above general way of judges and the like explaining the wither this way has led to many people including judges believing high withers are attained when the the dogs vertebrae is higher than the top of the shoulder blade - that the spine carries the dog.

The paper was also written as a presentation paper by me to GSD judges and breed surveyors who would have the benefit of me being there to explain anything that was confusing and there is a bit of that in my paper.

I noted the main interest in the forum and concern was the curved back.

For your interest, putting aside issues relating to matters such as elbow and hip dysplasia the primary concern I have for the breed at the moment is overangulation of the hindquarter and the paper is quite heavily influenced by this as you would have seen. This is in part what is changing the outline of the dog to the degree that non specialists including all breeds judges and the public are both confused and in some cases very concerned.

Whilst it was the wrong thing to do the decision by the English Kennel Club not to issue challenge certificates to the breed last year was tied in part to this matter.

I have just written an article that was published in Our Dogs in the UK that was based on my impressions of this last years Sieger Show in Germany and this expresses a concern and indeed a disappointment in the SV allowing this to take such a major hold in the breed not just in Germany but by their extraordinary influence, world wide.

Ironically this had been a problem in the early years in the UK and the SV gave the English a hammering for it and of course it is a major problem in the US.

I had a look at the part article by Shawline and that is great and I look forward to the balance including of course her sketches which she will do much better than I did in my paper. 

I will confess that there were parts I had to re-read more than once to ensure I had a proper grasp, but I am a bit of a knowledge hound, so it was an enjoyable 'grind' for me!

Yes, I noted and agreed wholeheartedly with the observations in reference to overangulation. I believe that the SV have in fact acknowledged this to be a problem for some time now, and yet I have not seen this reflected in the judging at the Sieger Shows, although others have said that they felt this year reflected a slight improvement, though I could not honestly say I noticed any significant difference, watching all the video footage. 

Germany undoubtedly drives how the GSD will look, and as a consequence what is generally considered 'correct' so it is only they that can change it's direction. One of my questions is whether the opportunity to 'edit the template' has been lost since there no longer seems to be sufficient variation in the dogs to be able to select for different features.

Or, perhaps it is more a problem with the judging system at Sieger Shows, whereby future VA's and V's are pretty much mapped out well in advance, by virtue of progressing through the grades each year.  This would seem to be a real handicap to implement a change of direction in type as had been done in the past when a change had been acknowledged to be beneficial. These are just some thoughts I have as to why we see no change when the SV clearly acknowledge change is needed.

I will seek out your article in Our Dogs, which I have not seen, as I would be interested in your impressions of the Sieger.

Hi Abby,

Here is a link to a digital version of the magazine containing the article of my impressions of the 2011 Sieger Show

http://www.mpldigital.com/our-dogs/sieger