Origin of Arched Back - Page 3

Thank you for the additonal responses everyone!

To me, I think a real working line dog should be defined as a working sheepdog. Period. 

That is the *ONLY* type of GSD that is a TRUE working dog day in and day out through all weather and circumstances.  Their actions on a daily basis are far more important than a dog in a sport or conformation ring trying to obtain a ribbon.

I have seen that some sheep farmers have tried to show their dogs so the resulting dogs now look much more modern with an arched back appearance.

But, what did Manfred Heyne's dogs and other working sheep farmers dogs look like who had no desire for show ring success or sales? I am just now learning about this breeder.

What do working german shepherd sheepdogs look like that have NOT been influenced by the show ring? Has anyone had a chance to see these dogs in action on their trips to Germany or Europe?   I think they may be hidden away because I have the feeling most true sheep farmers have no use for the show ring.

Does anyone have any old photos of working german shepherd sheepdogs who were not influenced by the show ring?

Can anyone provide photos or information on what these dogs look like as I feel that may provide a lot of insight.......


Thank you all again for the discussion!

Smiley, I have a great book for you, you can get it on amazon pretty cheap I think mine was like $5 The Book Of The GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG by Anna Katherine Nicholas.  It's great when you are first learning, it covers the breed from the start.  It is an older book.  Funny thing about the arched backs is I don't notice them in any of the big sieger or show winners until the mid to late 70's, and they were American bred lines.  I don't know what the purpose was I'm sure they have one.  I still notice the arched backs and over angulation much more in the american lines than I do the german working lines. I have German Wl gsds, and not a one of mine has an arched back, they work just fine and will go all day.  So to me people saying it is to improve movement is ridiculous. I would venture to say the start came out of human arrogance and ignorance.  As it usually goes humans get involved in things and start breeding for what their personal preference is as opposed to purpose.  And as far as fad goes yes unfortunately dogs go through fads too, and a lot of breeders, breed for what sells at the moment, and not what the breed is supposed to be.  Just look at any breed that has been the "it" breed for even just a short period, by the time people are done with it, it doesn't really resemble the dog it started out as.  Unfortunate as it is !

 I still notice the arched backs and over angulation much more in the american lines than I do the german working lines. 

With all due respect that is injustice to the American show GSD which has a straighter back and much closer to the GSD standard in this respect than the German show GSD where the arched back was developed with the intention to produce a dog with a stronger back and less fragile.

Ibrahim

Donnerstorm,  thank you for the information on the book! I will absolutely try to buy it!

However, I must, respectfully, disagree with you on the American lines having the arched backs. In my research, I have not found many American Champions who have arched backs (unless they are imported West German dogs) and only a few of those ever go Champion.  I have found the arched back to be mostly restricted to show dogs showing in German style shows (sorry..not sure what they are called other than the sieger one).  The American lines seem to have odd hind end angulation and their back legs touch the ground when they trot (but their backs look straight to me).

But, I am sad that nobody responded to my question of what todays herding dogs look like that have not been influenced by the show ring. Maybe they also have arched backs? I truly don't know but am very curious!!

http://www.workingdogs.com/lshaw1.htm 
I find this an interested article....

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/siegershow_winners.html
If you look at the VA list, toplines changed considerably in the mid 80's

My preference is the 1970's dogs.

   Smiley, if you want to see a good example of what the old herding lines look like look at pic's of the older Fidelco dogs - http://www.fidelco.org/breedwithin.html 
Fidelco is a seeing guide dog company since the early 1960's. Many of the dogs that don't work out as guides become police dogs / SAR dogs / pets.
Their orginal breed stock came directly from only herding working lines. They are all straight back look like most modern working line GSD's of today.
Their main colors are sables, black, & dark black + tan. They introduced other working GSD's into their breeding stock over the years.
video of Fidelco dogs - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xg0k9f_fidelco-guide-dogs_news
 

These dogs work all day & must walk / pull people & their backs are not roach either.
 

 

Sitasmom- Thanks for links! The link showing the siegers was awesome!!

How incredibly interesting!! What dog changed the looks from the 80' on?  Was it Fanto Vom Hirshel as he had A LOT of progeny listed?  Anyone?

I love the seventies and sixties the best!!

CPHudson- very neat!  I wonder what the bloodlines are of these Fidelco dogs as it says Bavarian on website?  Do these dogs ever make it out into the public for breeding?  Do they select outside dogs for studs or is it a closed breeding program? If they breed out, I wonder what the bloodline it is that they select?

Donnerstrom- you were right. Just bought book...$1.99 plus $3.99 shipping!  Looking forward to reading it. Thanks again for recommendation..... 

Fidelco started with European herding lines had a close breeding program for many years. That's why they say it's a breed with-in a breed.
But in recent years they had to start useing new working lines to widen their breed stock. One of the outside studs they used was;
Charly vom Hartmannshof  SCH3 - http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=340548 
There has been others with basically working lines now. Most of the German herding lines seem to have become more showlines so they had too hard of a time acquiring more.

They do not release their dogs for outside breedings / purchase intact. All dogs are spayed / neutered thats not in their breeding program.
Fidelco has people waiting years to adopt one of their dogs.