Origin of Arched Back - Page 5

Gusmanda..thank you. I will look into the book!

Rass...thank you very much!!  The more I researched, the more I discovered that the herding dogs must still maintain proper structure and temperament.  I am thrilled with your post! It is too bad that more breeders do not use these lines but I guess they would have a hard time selling puppies without the titles, current big names, and such....

All it takes is for one big time show or working person to do it though and maybe others would try it too!  There is still hope!!!!!!

I do not believe the owner of that site has any issues selling her puppies. 

Just sayin'

BTW I personally own a SL dog and an American bred SL dog.  The latter was never shown in conformation but is titled in obedience.  The SL dog is very very nice both in temperament and structure. 

The owner of the site I linked to likes both my dog's structures.

Remember.. it is not "SL" or "WL" as much as it is the dog and what you want to do.  There are dogs in both those lines that do not work.  There are dogs in both those lines that have no off switch.  There are dogs in both those lines that will herd. 

To say one is no good because of its pedigree may be tossing the baby out with the bathwater.  You do not show the pedigree or work the pedigree.  You show and work the dog. 

Shows are beauty contests where someone issues an opinion which is sometimes educated on the quality of your dog.  Work OTOH.. actual real work.. whatever it is.. is the ultimate judge of a dog's quality.  Work over time.. yers.. is the judge of the dog's structure and longevity.

A dog can either work or not and that can be due to structure or temperament or both. 

This is not to say the pedigree and the lines do not count because they absolutely do.  It is just that it is not the entire answer.  The dog is the answer. 

Of course, when you buy a puppy there is not as much to go on.  The pedigree is important as a possible predictor of that puppy's future.  However, you can get puppies with the finest lineage for the job you want to do that simply do not work. 

In the end it is the dog.   Type trends in the conformation ring may come and go.. but somewhere some one is still working dogs and breeding them for that work.   

Rass, you misunderstood me!  I said breeders who may have top show/sport dogs might have a hard time selling their puppies if bred to working herding dogs who are untitled (even if it would improve their animals).  Sorry I did not make that more clear in my post!! :-)

Found this article..very interesting!  Hope you all enjoy it as much I did!!!

Article: http://www.ddrlegends.com/manfredvisit.html

That was a very interesting website. I seem to remember seeing it or something similar some years ago.

Ibrahim my friend, we are disagreeing somewhat on the arched back ! I was wondering where the term 'open arched back' comes from? I haven't come across it before although this could simply be a gap in my knowledge. From what I can determine when you say an open arched back you refer to one with a minimal curve?

You used Dingo v h Gero to illustrate this. I agree that this back is a good example of a GSD back, not as straight as a ruler, but within a good functional range, and it looks attractive. If you watch the Dingo gaiting video, you will see wonderful rear extension which appears to have been lost with the increasing arch in the back we sometimes see today.

The emphasis appears all to be on front reach, and often times it can be seen that during this 'reach' the front legs are excessively high (which is not correct). To my mind this is very unbalanced. Concentrating only on the flying gait (and excessive reach) seems to have detracted from the overall dog.

However, having said that a completely straight or level back has been proved time and again to be perfectly strong provided the other structures in the body are in harmony. Malinois, Husky, working GSD, border collie, Bouvier (the list of working dogs with straight backs goes on and on) - all are examples of working dogs with stamina and endurance, tested daily, all straight backs. The information on the Manfred website too attests to GSDs with straight backs being able to work hard, all day long, even at quite advanced ages, which disproves the idea that a straight back will 'break down' prematurely. Conversely, as I think it was Mackenzie said, the modern GSD does not appear to have a very long 'career', even though the working element of the show ring is not particularly demanding.

So I have two questions:

Has it been proven that a straight back is weaker/less functional than an arched back?

Has it been proven that an arched back is stronger/better than than a straight back? 

May I say I have enjoyed this discussion and hearing all points of view.



 

Fred Lanting knows a great deal about GSD structure and anatomy. Just look at his book on Canine Hip Dysplasia and Orthopedic Disorders. He's said it's a complete myth that the arched back is stronger. There is absolutely NO proof to back this up at all. It is just another harmful fad perpetuated by the show fancy.

Meanwhile we have dogs that are so unbalanced that they can't extend their rear legs fully backwards, and goose step in front.

Last time I looked, the breed standard still said there must be NO wasted motion in the gait, and the feet must travel close to the ground.

For those who "do" think the arched back is stronger...... I'd sure love to see a pack of Huskies (who weigh from 35-60 lbs and have straight backs) in an endurance sled race(with a load on the sled) against a pack of arched back German Shepherds.  We all know who would win.  We also know why the Chukchi tribe, and those who still use the Huskies today never bred them to have an arched back.  Thankfully it has always been, and still is considered a fault in the breed if one does have it....or if one has a slanted back as well.   

Rass you stated 
Remember.. it is not "SL" or "WL" as much as it is the dog and what you want to do.  There are dogs in both those lines that do not work.

That is true.  However, although there are dogs in both lines that can't do every type of work (police, military, etc), it is more common in working lines to do that type of work.   Of course there are SLs that can do it too out there, I've seen very, very few,  and that video posted not too long ago showing the show lines in one of the events....where most every one of the dogs practically ran away from the helper (the helper who was practically walking towards the dogs)...... Just made me cringe.  I know there are many out there that can work in those type of events, but they just seem harder to find than a good working line dog. However I do agree with the rest of your statements.

I'm not sure why the term 'arched back' has replaced 'roached' on this thread.  The fault that is common in German showline dogs is definitely a roach, which is, by definition, an upward curvature of the spine.  The reason that the top of the curve does not often rise above the level of the withers is that the modern day GSD has developed crouching hindquarters, which obviously lowers the whole extent of the topline from the withers back.  This has actually accentuated the roach.

I do believe that supporters of this type of GSD have invented this new definition, that a roach is only present if the curve is above the withers, to redefine their dogs as complying with the standard.  That's certainly not how roach was defined back in the 80s when I completed the GSDL judging course.

But that said, a slight upward curvature over the loin is normal canine construction, not an absolutely straight spine.  Someone earlier in the thread has referred to the spine as S shaped, which is correct.  Arched loin is actually in the Siberian standard, also the sighthound breeds where this is more accentuated because a flexible spine is essential for efficient galloping.  But in these breeds it is in conjunction with a level topline, which is where the showline GSD fails.  I agree with many of the previous posters who see the roach as a deformity that impedes the GSD, and is a product of showring fashion.

"because a flexible spine is essential for efficient galloping. "

Well, guess what? A roached back is NOT flexible! I've heard the SV judges actually press down on the back to make sure it doesn't flex!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSHb98-C8V4&feature=related

Arched back?? Roach back? Definately more of a myth than fact, some of you guys need to get out more instead of doing all your research on a computer. Maybe you all should do a search here on this age old subject? As it has been discussed to death here. Sunsilver, no don't you dare bring "it" out, please? lol,lol.