Schutzhund "full calm hard bite" (no fight?) - Page 4

A little thrashing around might demonstrate good fight drive on a police dog, but not something I'd want have done to my sheep.

Daryl if there were that many people using GSDs for herding that could be a point, but I don't think that is the case anymore.

 Koach, I think the GSD is faced with a problem of popularity amongst people that don't do sport or any other work with the dogs therefor the goal of maintaining the ''working traits'' is not present. Too many people get involved in breeding dogs that should never be bred in the first place.
The breeders are all over the board as far as selecting criteria for breeding GSD, just look at some of the adds: large dogs,big heads,color,or just country of origin (Czech dogs being an example).
How many breeders actually say, my dogs are bred to be athletic (scale a palisade, do a long jum),have energy to do a complete Ring 3 routine (45 minutes non stop) etc?
Luckily some breeders are still interested in putting out a good product, the problem they face is finding working homes for these dogs.
Ok, time to get off my soap box!

Since there aren't many people using GSDs for ANY work, what's really the point of breeding for anything but color and size? The question was answered; because it fit the work of the time. Full and calm bites are not necessary for manstopping.

Tenmon, please tell me you are joking about that live prey and comparing SChH to killing prey. ROTFLMAO. That was hysterical. Please that lion analogy is ridiculous. I could easily explain the fundamentals of a calm grip but I won't. My sides hurt too much from laughing so hard.

Hey Slam I have an analogy too.  Did you ever hear the one about the  blind men trying to describe the elephant?  Only in this case I don't think anyone even touched the elephant they just heard about it over the Internet!!!!!

Slam and Sueincc I'm not trying to get personal here.  Please take a step back from laughing so much.  I get those once in awhile.  The thread has jumped from calm full grip, aggression, obedience to breeding, with everyone all over the place posting thier thoughts, as constructive as they can.  Besides your both comments, you have added nothing to the thread.  I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject if you can pull yourselves from laughing so much.  Please be aware that talking about the "fundementals of a full grip, is totally different than the reasons why.  the anology was just that.  It was referenced as to regards to prey, one of the primary instinct for survival, with the other being defense.   They anology could easily have gone both ways.  I can teach you the fundementals of throwing a proper punch, but the reason for throwing the punch using those fundementals are vastly different.  Sorry if my anonogy was not close to your(s) vast experiences, but I would love to hear your thoughts.  No disrespect here.

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I'm confused. Is Tenmon saying they SHOULD be talking about the whys, or should NOT be?

Don't want to do that.  Maybe I'm confused.  I was just trying to bring an anology( a likeness for what its worth)  for the reason the full grip was important as depicted by the schutzhund rule, as it relays to a prey, just from a pictorial perspective.  Nothing more. Of course when you look at it from a defensive perspective it is different. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth!

Well, what is schutzhund supposed to be similating? I thought it was a choreograph of the apprehension of a person as a tool for determining breed worthiness? So I don't think the prey analogy did much to promote that. But we know I'm just as confused as they come.

A full calm grip is genetic.  Grips can be enhanced by good training or lessened by bad training.  However, a dog with a natural full calm grip is genetic.  Dogs with full, HARD CRUSHING grips are genetic and want to fight and have strong nerves.  The point of judging the grip in SchH is that you get a look into the dog's mind and soul through the grip.  If you are able to read dogs you will see an awful lot by watching and judging the grip.  The grip whether full and calm, shallow, or chewy tells you something about the dog.  Full grips are desired because when rating a dog for a SchH trial which is a scored event; grips are one way to score dogs.  Full grips generally show a more confident, self assured dog who is not concerned or afraid of the decoy.  Taken away from a SchH trial when I test dogs for Police work I rate the grips that is one criteria I look for.  I do not care if the dog bites a bad guy with a full or shallow grip, actually shallow grips hurt more and the dog has to bite harder to hold on.  But, full grips rate higher when testing because of what the grips tell me the dog is thinking and feeling in the confrontation.  Full grips are desirable and show the level of commitment in the dog, whether they are sport dogs or real working K-9's.  Dogs overloaded in defense do not usually bite full.  If anyone thinks a good SchH dog is not fighting the decoy on the escape or drive has obviously never done helper work with a good dog.  I really do not want to go into detail on this here.  Suffice it to say that dogs with full, calm crushing grips are largely genetic based and very desirable. 

Jim