Schutzhund "full calm hard bite" (no fight?) - Page 6

Chaz...understandable what you are saying. Are you talking about all the of the mals in the videos? Or just the 2nd mal? Can I ask your opinion of the other two? Endor in the first video, and Ivo in the last video.

To you, are those examples of poor nerves? Also why would the KNPV desire such dogs? Since they focus on the production of police K9s...

You can PM me, since this thread is supposed to be about schutzhund grips...

I didn't watch all. I think the first two. And I wouldn't say anything about their nerves. I just don't think those are good examples of a dog fighting a man. I have nothing against malinois. I like them. I like any dog that works. I, like others on here, like a dog that is more serious in the protection phase. I don't like a dog tapping, begging for the sleeve and is content in going for the ride because he already has what he wants, the sleeve/reward. But like Jim and others have said, there are plenty of very nice dogs doing SchH. I do some helper work. Less now than I used to. I see plenty of good dogs that have fight. You know, some of it may be part of the training. Take your video of Nancy Reagan working her gsd on that old dude. You can see her goal is to have a calm dog on the sleeve. The dog goes into that huge blind and she checks him with the clothes line/leash. After he gets a bite, she cradles.

Thank You...

Nancy Raegan...lol

Some GSDs bite hard due to a genetically determined high level of prey drive after this prey drive is stimulated.  Others bite extremely hard because they are biting in self-defense out of fear.  Some bite hard because they are itching for as fight and are naturally aggressive and they interpret the target as someone challenging their dominance or territory.

I have had a Sch dog that viewed a courage test as a game and he obeyed the rules to get praise. There was no anger, growling or raw aggression, he just did what he was trained to do.  On home turf inside our home, it was different.  When I had him tested by an experienced friend who "staged" a break-in and went at my dog aggressively, the biting was for real and much more aggressive and accompanied by growling, head shaking and pure aggression. A sound, well bred GSD can snese the difference between a real attack and a mock Sch game.  I have been told by an canine police officer that a good GSD police dog will follow commands as far as pursuit, search, holding and biting, but also will respond with different higher level of aggression when the perp fights back over and above the training.

The hardest biting dog of any breed I have ever seen close up was a 135 lb male Pressia Canary.  This dog was a true manstopper while being well balanced, great around visitors, strangers, friends, and kids.  But he could hit the sleeve like a freight train and knew the difference between a real threat and a Sch game.  He and his close relatives were similar in temperament, quite unlike others who were misbred and were danerous dogs (eg the two owned by an attorney couple in Ca that killed a lady in the hall of her apt building).

The example KellyJ presented in the short video clip was impressive.  If a GSD is protecting its owner from a break-in, does one want this kind of bite or a "game bite".  I prefer real aggression and fighting instinct from a territorially dominant GSD that has a high level of natural aggression and sufficient training for control without being a prey monster and a thinking dog that can respond appropriately to differing levels of threat. 

Preston, I'm sorry to hear your friend had to go at your dog aggresively. Maybe you should have its hearing checked. I would do that before you assume the worst of you dog.

Personally I would prefer a .45 aimed at the little X right between one's eyes. 

Hardness of bite? A very large margin of difference to the crushing power of a bite is due to the COMMITMENT behind the bite, as well as some* amount of routine physical conditioning. IOW, primarily from genetics, structural and behavioral. But training under stress should provide some influence on bite commitment, especially where some level of confidence may have improved from its initial entry prior to training. Fullness of bite? No difference due to size or structure, that I know of. Calmness of bite? Perhaps it could be debated that generally larger dogs of bigger bonesize tend to have greater nerve stability. That is not to say that all fighting on the bite is due to weaker nerves. I personally like a dog that works pushing its weight into the bite and utilizing its legs to pry on the helper. My view is, more points of contact throw the quarry off balance. If whatever sport in question chooses to favor this or condem it, it would make little difference to me. I make no apologies for what I like, since every sport available has its own imperfections, and I don't have to answer to any of them.

Chaz, I have no idea what you are getting at.  I was happy with my dogs response at the time and felt it was appropriate.  He perceived the breakin as real because the aggressor went right at him and hit him with a rolled up newspaper.  Darleyret, you make a good point about the commitment of the dog behind the bite.  And Gustav I agree with your point that it depends on the specific dog. I believe that many GSDs become more aggressive and dominant in their own kennel (if a kennel dog) or inside their own house if they are a 24/7 in home pet and home protector.  My experience has been that a good temperamented GSD has a natural tendency to be territorial and also dominant in his own territory.  It seems to me that for a GSD to make a great police dog, he would have to be very naturally aggressive with high fight drive, have a high level of prey drive, be very energetic and alert, be very smart and trainable, and be sound and stable and have a high capacity to take pain and frustration and be able to deliver a very hard grasping bite.  Since the GSD police dog is often working outside his patrol car, it sems to me that he does not have the instinctive advantage of working in his own personal home territory.  Thus, these dogs have to be very highly selected and may not make good family pets for the average 24/7 in home pet and protector.  Their prey drive may be too much for most such folks.  Of course the best folks to comment on this are the actual folks that train police dogs and compete and win with them on a regular basis at a national level and who have well klnown reputations for this. What I have been told by K9 officers in my area is that they are currently importing very good GSDs coming from certain Czech breeders and they are very satisfied with these dogs, but most would consider them hard dogs, that is, once they commit to a task, it may take a very firm order or correction to get compliance, ie that their prey drive locks in an they get very serious about completing their task almost as if they were on auto-pilot. 

Preston, I'm just saying that I wouldn't jump to conclusions because the dog didn't stop the guy from breaking in or didn't meet HIM at the entry point, but that the guy had to go aggressively at the dog. The dog may have a hearing problem and didn't realize someone was breaking in. You may have a 15,000 sq ft house. Maybe the guy broke into the west wing and the dog didn't know.

Oops. Nevermind, should have read post more carefully...