WL + SL = BL??? - Page 17

For a nice WL/ SL cross there is Quest vom Schneiden Fels out of Jaro vom Avenir. Nice pedigree with plenty of ability and agression

Says who?

Chuck, I'm not saying you're wrong. Just want to point out that one person's aggression is something different to someone else. Show me.

In the pedigree. I've seen Jaro, and Rainy has Troll vom Haus Milinda.

Charlie,

 The intent of my question had nothing to do with you commenting on Cp's pups. I was challenging your position on SL's considering your ideal GSD has very little in common with them.
 
 So, I will rephrase my question. If you were looking to breed dogs with Marko's confirmation and at the same time improve temperament. Why wouldn't you select breeding stock that is more in line with Marko's type vs. spending generations altering dogs that bare little resemblance in both structure and temperament?

 IMO Cp's female is a good example of correct structure and she shares more in common with Marko then most of todays SL's. You stated your ideal color doesn't have to be Blk&Red and confirmation wasn't your top priority. So, when I look at things from your perspective and if I was going to make these large scale improvements, crossing lines just seems like more work then it worth considering all the options available. I'm not bashing anyone, just looking for a rational and honest explaination to something that makes little sense to me.  

 I agree with you regarding aggression in GSD's. Lack of aggression is just one of several reasons for the decline of GSD's in many fields. Fortunately, there are still WL breeders out there maintaining these types of lines. Like you said, we can leave this discussion for another day.

I think this video will clearly illustrate the dangers of crossing Show lines with Working lines!
 
Both SL & WL require love, discipline, guidance and acceptance.

Never underestimate the power of influence you have (positive and negative) or lack thereof, on the future of any puppy. 
 
 Viewer Discretion is Advised
 
 
                                    How do like Me Now?!
                                                                                - Toby Keith & K9 Echo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDLrLZdqP0Y

I want to blow up buckets!

Thanks Nypiper, we adore our girl. She really is the complete package in structure, movement, temperament, & work ability. She is tuff girl one of our more civil dogs.

Now a days you see so many more WL's competing in shows / breed survey ratings of V or SG. WL's have not been as highly in bred as the SL's for the last 40 years, so there is still a large degree of differences with in the WL's from temperaments, drive levels, natural aggression, structure & colors. They don't generally fit into the standard cookie cutter mold like most West German SL / American SL anyone can easily spot.
Because of this the WL's have the power to enhance / correct structure / drives etc. by using only other WL's.

I don't have anything against SL's, I've owned SL's & even bred SL's with WL's many years ago. There are 2x as many SL breeders in the USA alone if someone wishes to have the look of a SL, then there are plenty of breeders to choose from with in that selection. There are still some SL breeders that work / title their dogs you just have to find the correct breeder. I do believe that SL breeders would benefit in adding WL's back into their stock to help increase better temperaments, working drives, heath, more functional structure, etc.. But in the end they will care more about the looks of the given offspring from such a cross so will most likely select a dog more like the SL's. 
If people / general public really wanted to change the SL's then they would stop accepting a GSD not conforming to the true standard in structure / temperament, & not purchase a SL. As long as with in the SL community everything is ignored / accepted & there are no short age of selling SL puppies / dogs, I don't see any change.

What would be the benefit to breed a WL with a SL? There are plenty of beautiful structure WL's in all colors to bred too if you wish to improve on structure. Same is true if you wish to add more aggression / less prey drives, certain WL's are known for that as well. Other than black & red color, plusher coat & larger size what would be the big drawn to mix WL with SL's?

The super high drive WL's are generally always the stand outs in clubs & trails leading to the perception all WL's are like that. When majority of WL's are spending their lives as loving family pets & protectors.
The GSD's that are; unregistered / sport wash outs / have less than SG structure, but still have high drives are normally the dogs purchased by brokers for resale to police / detection work. So it's easy to see why so
many people believe WL's need help with structure / less crazy drives when the majority of dogs seen in public with police / work, or in sport are not the well bred WL's from respected breeders.
But there are so many beautiful balance WL's out there. Well bred WL's are plentiful but don't always get the spot light. 

WL's are not perfect / lacking improvement & are not meant for everyone, but that is why we have so many different breeds of dogs. 

Old school type dog and old school type training.......gives me flashbacks to dogs and training we did in the seventies. BTW, for all of you, I LOVE that black and red dog!!!!!!

Gustav...which blk and red do you love?

CP you are on point in everything you say but then you asked "Other than black & red color, plusher coat & larger size what would be the big drawn to mix WL with SL's? " Blk and red, plusher coat, and size ...that is THREE reasons some people want to keep the SL.  Now again...people will say that you should never breed for looks.....but I think the majority of people (on here at least) have accepted that looks are a fact of life and again personally, I do not see it as a crime to want a good looking dog (my opinion).  I do however (as do most) feel that looks should not be the main / driving factor in breeding / selecting the dog and that great balance is paramount.  We obviously have the resources...great dogs on both sides (who has more would be a completely new thread...ha)...very knowledgeable breeders / enthusiasts and, I believe a decent amount of interest in the idea / subject.  The question is really, why would you NOT do it.  Those who say it will water down the WL side....are there really so few dogs that selecting a small percentage to mix with the Sl will affect the WLs overall performance?  This is not sarcsm but a sincere question.  There just has not been a real good reason (at least in my mind) why this would not be a good thing....other than the "hidden recessives" (which I think are present in ANY breeding) and the rocky road of an initial inbreeding or hard line breeding in the early stages of the program.

If there are twice as many SL breeders out there and people are buying twice as many SL puppies I am guessing that it shows a lot of people like the "look" of that type of dog.  As guardians if the breed, I would think it would be up to the breeders to give them the best product possible and by doing so keeping the GSD at the forefront as THE best dog around!  You then said :

"If people / general public really wanted to change the SL's then they would stop accepting a GSD not conforming to the true standard in structure / temperament, & not purchase a SL. As long as with in the SL community everything is ignored / accepted & there are no short age of selling SL puppies / dogs, I don't see any change.


Honestly...you give the general public WAY too much credit!!! I don't think (IMHO) that 90 % of the general public could even tell you what a SL or WL is.  When you become an expert in something...sometimes you forget how little the rest of the world really knows about the subject.  And I mean that in a very complimentry way!  Do you really think the General Public has any idea what the breed standard is for a German Shepherd?  Do you think they even know what a breed standard is?  

What benefit is there to the WL?  I will give two benefits I see....I don't really want to do this because I see it as me hitting the proverbial hornets nest with a stick... but here goes.  AND KEEP IN MIND THIS IS MY OPINION.


1) By mixing the two it will help bring more exposure to the WL side.  From what I have read there are more WL's competing in shows / breed survey ratings of V or SG (see CP's last post). By using some Wls to help the SL...if a "SL" dog that was the product of a WL - SL outcross were to win a national championship..his pedigree would obviously be studied. He will be sought after....you will hear the old...."The winner of such and such dog show is: (insert name). He is out of (WL dog name and SL dog name).  People will then study both parents = exposure. If you do not believe that will give exposure...go to the stupid (YES I SAID STUPID) Westminster dog show.....that thing sells out like a ny ranger playoff game!  That is what the general public sees.  Go to a shutzhund trial and you are lucky to see one set of bleachers filled (my preference...I HATE crowds) but that is NOT exposure.  Now...which crowd knows more about the GSD???  I'm going with the bleachers.

How did the SL "look" become what the General public wants? Rin Tin Tin?  Martin Brothers?  Whatever it was, it happened over time.  There is no doubt that getting the WL look desired or accepted by public / judges could only be helped by exposure. I KNOW some WL people could give a flying "you know what" about being accepted...I am speaking in generalities here with the goal being keeping the best, soundest GSD in the home. If you love the look of you Wl and would like to see more of them in your neighborhood this can only help.  Thinking about it...I rarely see any GSDs out these days...all labs and pitbulls...seems like the younger generation loves their pits...should we be worried? Oh and Gustav....I was 10 when you imported your first GSD! :)

2) The mix would ensure the development of EXTREMES in the Wl side....drives grips etc.  (it would also help bring the SL back from extremes but I am talking about the benefits to the WL side).

Oh and there is a third....the Wl side would be doing the nice thing for the SL side!  LOL
  
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