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by Gustav on 19 May 2012 - 19:05
@NYPiper....the black and tan/red dog in the video....to me that 9 month old puppy is gorgeous. BTW, I kinda figured you were young by many of your comments on the breed. Not meant to be disrespectful, but in any venue, when you have been where others are trying to get....its not hard to see. Oh and if the SL and the WL were evenly balanced in their in/linebreeding maybe your suggestion would appeal to WL people. But when the SL dogs are backmassed for 10 to 15 generations on a couple of dogs, one in particular known for less than stellar temperament, than you get a disporportinate amount of that concentrated blood into the mix.....now you tell me why somebody would want to introduce that into their program if they are trying to stay true to breeding for strong nerve and hardiness? Strong nerves are the most important aspect of the breed and easy to lose if you start introducing stock with strong doses of genetic weakness. Of course I have mentioned before the genetic balance isn't equal between SL and WL, but people still suggest this route like it will magically have no effect cause they mean well...hmmmmm.
by charlie319 on 19 May 2012 - 21:05
Felloffher:
I apologize if I misread your comment and question. The fact that you knew that I like Marko type dogs made me think you’d researched me and some of my positions. My ideal GSD is not particularly rooted on a physical type. I prefer dogs with a strong civil side, high suspicion, and reactive aggression. Those dogs are seldom seen in the “market” because they are not what the breeders perceive to be demanded and they require hard to achieve temperaments to function well in sport. Mind you, I’m not in favor of imposing my view of what the dog should be. I love the T Korbelbach litter and I wish we could see more dogs like that, as well as dogs like Major vom Phoenix and some of his progeny like this linebred V rated WL http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=427139that I researched. These are WL’s with a high aesthetic quotient yet not in the same league as . But since we’re asking about what I like and think, I’ll roll with that.
Let’s start with the WL’s. There are a lot of dogs bred to be little sleeve whores with ultra high prey drives. Nothing wrong with that if that is what you want; and it seems that since they can be very easy to turn-over in training, title and Koerr, there are a lot of them (not just on WL’s, but also in SL’s). That is why the Cz dogs are so popular with many.
As to your question:
“If you were looking to breed dogs with Marko's confirmation and at the same time improve temperament. Why wouldn't you select breeding stock that is more in line with Marko's type vs. spending generations altering dogs that bare little resemblance in both structure and temperament?”
Answer: Marko was a sieger four decades ago and there are no males of his line. Also, if we are breeding to genetics, why are you espousing breeding to "type"? Presently there are few, if any dogs that would have held a candle to the siegers from that era such as Nico vom Haus Beck. Even Wanko http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1725would be a kick-ass dog in either camp today. So, you work with what you have and look to breed towards what you want to achieve.
You seem to miss the boat in your argument of a dog that “is a good example of correct structure and she shares more in common with Marko then most of today’s SL's” being the objective of the breed. Granted, the capacity for work must be overriding factor, and SL breeders have intentionally dropped the ball on this issue. The “large scale improvements” you mention may seem like more work then it worth to you. But not to me. Otherwise, we’d still be using abacus and not those little handy I-phones. As far as to a good working dog from SL’s, you have Cliff vom Huhnegrab and Cash vom Wildsteigerland as two easily obtained examples.
To understand the lack of aggression in the SL’s (and not in all as there are plenty of them that are aggressive), you have to look at the market dynamics at work. SL owners/breeders want a dog that will do well in the ring. Work or agression is secondary. Yet there are quite a few breeders who still look at a dog’s skills and drives when picking a mate for their female. Think of it as the Ying to the WL’s Yang of crazy prey drive in some dogs. I'll also grant you that there are many breeders (albeit a statistical minority) who strive for balance in their breedings.
If I had been a WL breeder, back when the Martin boys shut out Grays, blacks and sables, I’d have been hacked off to no end. I’m certain that more than a few set out to breed to a strict adhesion of the breed standard with little if any consideration given to anything else. Thus we have now a WL sector that eschews aesthetics in the dog, yet it seems that every few years push aesthetic factors such as “dark sables” in the marketing of their litters. Last year, I was at a regional Schutzhund show and a friend who owns WL dogs was complaining about the waste of time that the conformation show was. Granted that it drew about 3 times more entries than all the work trials combined, and you could consider it the cash cow of the show. And therein lies the rub. Dogs that do better in conformation will outdraw $$$$$ those who don’t in extending their line.
I apologize if I misread your comment and question. The fact that you knew that I like Marko type dogs made me think you’d researched me and some of my positions. My ideal GSD is not particularly rooted on a physical type. I prefer dogs with a strong civil side, high suspicion, and reactive aggression. Those dogs are seldom seen in the “market” because they are not what the breeders perceive to be demanded and they require hard to achieve temperaments to function well in sport. Mind you, I’m not in favor of imposing my view of what the dog should be. I love the T Korbelbach litter and I wish we could see more dogs like that, as well as dogs like Major vom Phoenix and some of his progeny like this linebred V rated WL http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=427139that I researched. These are WL’s with a high aesthetic quotient yet not in the same league as . But since we’re asking about what I like and think, I’ll roll with that.
Let’s start with the WL’s. There are a lot of dogs bred to be little sleeve whores with ultra high prey drives. Nothing wrong with that if that is what you want; and it seems that since they can be very easy to turn-over in training, title and Koerr, there are a lot of them (not just on WL’s, but also in SL’s). That is why the Cz dogs are so popular with many.
As to your question:
“If you were looking to breed dogs with Marko's confirmation and at the same time improve temperament. Why wouldn't you select breeding stock that is more in line with Marko's type vs. spending generations altering dogs that bare little resemblance in both structure and temperament?”
Answer: Marko was a sieger four decades ago and there are no males of his line. Also, if we are breeding to genetics, why are you espousing breeding to "type"? Presently there are few, if any dogs that would have held a candle to the siegers from that era such as Nico vom Haus Beck. Even Wanko http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1725would be a kick-ass dog in either camp today. So, you work with what you have and look to breed towards what you want to achieve.
You seem to miss the boat in your argument of a dog that “is a good example of correct structure and she shares more in common with Marko then most of today’s SL's” being the objective of the breed. Granted, the capacity for work must be overriding factor, and SL breeders have intentionally dropped the ball on this issue. The “large scale improvements” you mention may seem like more work then it worth to you. But not to me. Otherwise, we’d still be using abacus and not those little handy I-phones. As far as to a good working dog from SL’s, you have Cliff vom Huhnegrab and Cash vom Wildsteigerland as two easily obtained examples.
To understand the lack of aggression in the SL’s (and not in all as there are plenty of them that are aggressive), you have to look at the market dynamics at work. SL owners/breeders want a dog that will do well in the ring. Work or agression is secondary. Yet there are quite a few breeders who still look at a dog’s skills and drives when picking a mate for their female. Think of it as the Ying to the WL’s Yang of crazy prey drive in some dogs. I'll also grant you that there are many breeders (albeit a statistical minority) who strive for balance in their breedings.
If I had been a WL breeder, back when the Martin boys shut out Grays, blacks and sables, I’d have been hacked off to no end. I’m certain that more than a few set out to breed to a strict adhesion of the breed standard with little if any consideration given to anything else. Thus we have now a WL sector that eschews aesthetics in the dog, yet it seems that every few years push aesthetic factors such as “dark sables” in the marketing of their litters. Last year, I was at a regional Schutzhund show and a friend who owns WL dogs was complaining about the waste of time that the conformation show was. Granted that it drew about 3 times more entries than all the work trials combined, and you could consider it the cash cow of the show. And therein lies the rub. Dogs that do better in conformation will outdraw $$$$$ those who don’t in extending their line.
by Gustav on 20 May 2012 - 12:05
Charlie319....we must talk some day....you have a lot of good stuff in the above post.
by darylehret on 20 May 2012 - 13:05
So is a "balanced" dog supposed to be a "golden middle" for character and drives? Too aggressive for SAR, but not enough aggression for SchH? Too sharp for a seeing eye dog, but too dull for SchH? Not independant enough to work livestock, nor handler oriented enough to excel in SchH?
Or would "balanced" describe a dog with stronger, higher drives, equiped with a clear head and an off switch? There IS a balance to be found in extremes.
Balance could mean a lot of things, and everything has it's "center of gravity" when in it's most suitable environment. If specialization is what breeding is all about and how it got started, middle of the road must be the original "wolf". But that would ill suit man's purpose.
Or would "balanced" describe a dog with stronger, higher drives, equiped with a clear head and an off switch? There IS a balance to be found in extremes.
Balance could mean a lot of things, and everything has it's "center of gravity" when in it's most suitable environment. If specialization is what breeding is all about and how it got started, middle of the road must be the original "wolf". But that would ill suit man's purpose.
by Felloffher on 20 May 2012 - 21:05
Charlie,
Also, if we are breeding to genetics, why are you espousing breeding to "type"?
Yes, we are breeding genetics, but type can be used to describe traits in certain lines or an individual dog. It would be difficult to maintain consistancy in a breeding program without it. Breeding type doesn't limit genetic diversity, unless of course the goal is to produce a limited number of traits with little variance.
"You seem to miss the boat in your argument of a dog that “is a good example of correct structure and she shares more in common with Marko then most of today’s SL's” being the objective of the breed."
"And I also grant that the work of four decades won't be undone in a couple of generations, but if what we are proposing, which is essentially returning the breed to its earlier condition of dogs like Marko vom Cellerand, we should start moving the boulder over... For as the saying goes, if not now, when?"
So, what exactly is the objective? Are you proposing yet another line of GSD's to be shown in the ring? I share many of your views on what makes a good GSD, how to achieve it is where we differ.
Also, if we are breeding to genetics, why are you espousing breeding to "type"?
Yes, we are breeding genetics, but type can be used to describe traits in certain lines or an individual dog. It would be difficult to maintain consistancy in a breeding program without it. Breeding type doesn't limit genetic diversity, unless of course the goal is to produce a limited number of traits with little variance.
"You seem to miss the boat in your argument of a dog that “is a good example of correct structure and she shares more in common with Marko then most of today’s SL's” being the objective of the breed."
"And I also grant that the work of four decades won't be undone in a couple of generations, but if what we are proposing, which is essentially returning the breed to its earlier condition of dogs like Marko vom Cellerand, we should start moving the boulder over... For as the saying goes, if not now, when?"
So, what exactly is the objective? Are you proposing yet another line of GSD's to be shown in the ring? I share many of your views on what makes a good GSD, how to achieve it is where we differ.
by charlie319 on 20 May 2012 - 21:05
Hi Darylehret:
Balance is a word that is bandied around as if it has an objective meaning... Obviously a therapy dog will need a different "balance" of drives than a SAR, Sport or real-life police dog, and even there, you have drug dogs, dual purpose, trackers, etc... For the puposes of our conversation we're looking at dogs that have balanced drives for work and showring. Yet, lost in all this is the lynchpin that allow those drives to operate efficient and effectively; temperament. All these dogs must be able to work in drive and reamin under their handler's control. You can have a dog with extreme drives that has balance, if he has a strong enough temperament to handle the extremes of those drives. You could have a dog with outsized prey drive and substantial defense drive, and if his temperament is hard enough to work in those drives with some clarity, and without being a challenge to the handler, he'd probably be a monster on the field engaging the helper as both prey and adversary. Forget the points... Such a dog would be a crowd pleaser and likely to dominate in breeding because many times we forget what dog won a trial, but we remember the dogs that bring a brickhouse behind their bite. Those dogs are very hard to breed too. In these breedings , balance, has to account for drives, temperament, disposition, and then all the physical attributes. It is a lot easier to breed dogs with
While the wolf was brought in to address health issues, I believe the GSD is more sheepherding dog in origin than wolf. And if I recall, the GSD was not created so much as a specialized dog, but as a dog able to do a variety of tasks, yet the ability to work should be primary in consideration and in many SL's that has not been the case. Therefore, we see people wanting to "de-evolve" SL's (and even some WL's) to dogs from the 70's and 60's.
Balance is a word that is bandied around as if it has an objective meaning... Obviously a therapy dog will need a different "balance" of drives than a SAR, Sport or real-life police dog, and even there, you have drug dogs, dual purpose, trackers, etc... For the puposes of our conversation we're looking at dogs that have balanced drives for work and showring. Yet, lost in all this is the lynchpin that allow those drives to operate efficient and effectively; temperament. All these dogs must be able to work in drive and reamin under their handler's control. You can have a dog with extreme drives that has balance, if he has a strong enough temperament to handle the extremes of those drives. You could have a dog with outsized prey drive and substantial defense drive, and if his temperament is hard enough to work in those drives with some clarity, and without being a challenge to the handler, he'd probably be a monster on the field engaging the helper as both prey and adversary. Forget the points... Such a dog would be a crowd pleaser and likely to dominate in breeding because many times we forget what dog won a trial, but we remember the dogs that bring a brickhouse behind their bite. Those dogs are very hard to breed too. In these breedings , balance, has to account for drives, temperament, disposition, and then all the physical attributes. It is a lot easier to breed dogs with
While the wolf was brought in to address health issues, I believe the GSD is more sheepherding dog in origin than wolf. And if I recall, the GSD was not created so much as a specialized dog, but as a dog able to do a variety of tasks, yet the ability to work should be primary in consideration and in many SL's that has not been the case. Therefore, we see people wanting to "de-evolve" SL's (and even some WL's) to dogs from the 70's and 60's.
by charlie319 on 20 May 2012 - 22:05
Felloffher:
If we look at the breeding practices of the important breeders both in SL and WL, we can all see a nice "Funnel Effect" in breeding to the more eminent dogs and bitches and creating a much shallower and narrower genetic pool. breeding to type is what was done in the US for a looooong time, until genetic issues took precedence. These days most of what determines worthiness of a dog for breeding are his hips. Forget about the fact that many dogs with "bad" hips function oblivious of the fact until they die, or that many dogs with excellent hips end up dysplastic. Breeding excelleent hips is still no guarantee that you won't get a genetic outlier with bad hips. I'm all for breeding to "type", but that is not popular these days. Also, dogs are not meant to be perfect. Get used to it.
I can't speak for the OP's objective, but in my particular case, I like a dog that has some prey drive, but also a good helping of defense drive, pack and fight drive with substantial civil and and reactive agression. I want the dog to engage the helper as an agressor and to take off the sleeve and not to see the sleeve as a toy. Granted, that could pose several issues in training as such drives in a young dog are hard to orchestrate without risking damage to helper (physical) and/or animal (psychological). But, back in the day, those were the dogs we had and, because of that, training took longer. We all know that time is money and that is where the behavioral issues of today's dogs ruffle some feathers.
If we look at the breeding practices of the important breeders both in SL and WL, we can all see a nice "Funnel Effect" in breeding to the more eminent dogs and bitches and creating a much shallower and narrower genetic pool. breeding to type is what was done in the US for a looooong time, until genetic issues took precedence. These days most of what determines worthiness of a dog for breeding are his hips. Forget about the fact that many dogs with "bad" hips function oblivious of the fact until they die, or that many dogs with excellent hips end up dysplastic. Breeding excelleent hips is still no guarantee that you won't get a genetic outlier with bad hips. I'm all for breeding to "type", but that is not popular these days. Also, dogs are not meant to be perfect. Get used to it.
I can't speak for the OP's objective, but in my particular case, I like a dog that has some prey drive, but also a good helping of defense drive, pack and fight drive with substantial civil and and reactive agression. I want the dog to engage the helper as an agressor and to take off the sleeve and not to see the sleeve as a toy. Granted, that could pose several issues in training as such drives in a young dog are hard to orchestrate without risking damage to helper (physical) and/or animal (psychological). But, back in the day, those were the dogs we had and, because of that, training took longer. We all know that time is money and that is where the behavioral issues of today's dogs ruffle some feathers.
by darylehret on 20 May 2012 - 23:05
I agree, too many people carelessly use the word "balance" as if everyone ELSE is supposed to know what it means to the user. Then, of course, the writer's words are going to find a LOT more agreement among a lot more people, than to use a word like "off-kilter", I would reckon.Balance is a word that is bandied around as if it has an objective meaning... Obviously a therapy dog will need a different "balance" of drives than a SAR, Sport or real-life police dog, and even there, you have drug dogs, dual purpose, trackers, etc... For the puposes of our conversation we're looking at dogs that have balanced drives for work and showring.
But, for the purpose of this conversation, if the term balance is to describe "drives for work and showring", WHAT exactly are the WL's deficient of again? Maybe the rules and regs of the showring are what really needs revamped. The flying trot can take a flying you know what, as far as I'm concerned. There are WL dogs that can do the real work all day just fine without it.
by Felloffher on 21 May 2012 - 00:05
Charlie,
Would future generations of dogs from a SL & WL cross need to be Blk & Red and would your goal be to compete in dog shows under the current SV standard?
Would future generations of dogs from a SL & WL cross need to be Blk & Red and would your goal be to compete in dog shows under the current SV standard?
by brynjulf on 21 May 2012 - 02:05
Hey Waiko went VA today! It's a start. Sables are being seen :)
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