WL + SL = BL??? - Page 2

I would say a great dog with awesome drives, focus, grip that is completely trustworthy around kids, dogs, livestock (too much to ask for

You have just decribed both my dogs and both are working line, along with the requirements you have stated both mine are very nice looking dogs and i get stopped all the time with people paying me complements on there beauty and temperment, both have been Schutzhund trained, and both live as family pets

RLHAR amd Nellie,  That's awesome that you have the perfect dogs!!!! Now where do I find your dogs with the SL saddle look? :) As I said, I also have the perfect dog I think "luck" had a lot to do with it.  He is a mix of WL and SL but again I got lucky.  Just wondering why there hasn't been a clear defined movement by several well respected top breeders to mix the two or are they always going to be mutually exclusive? It is interesting to me but it is definately something that should be done by breeders who KNOW and UNDERSTAND the genetics, backround and ramifications / benefits of these breedings (outcrosses).  Is it that those with the most knowledge needed for such an undertaking are all such purists that they do not see the benefit or need to mix both.  Maybe there is no need to mix both (again I know there are perfect dogs in some litters out of pure WL and SL dogs).  I was just thinking that in another three generations in a worse case scenerio....most SL dogs will be low drive etc and most WL dogs will have over the top drives and looking less and less like the classic GSD.  Again...the last sentence was an exxageration but it is to make a point.  If there is a perceived problem looming on the horizon,  wouldn't it be best to take corrective steps BEFORE it becomes a serious problem?  Judging from the amount of threads on here by people A LOT smarter than me...I would say SOME people are at least worried about it.
Another question.  Since the sable gene is a dominant gene (I think) does that mean that if a sable is mated to a saddle back...will the offspring ALWAYS be sables?

I've never understood the appeal of the saddle back look. I've always thought the majority weren't that attractive.....just sayin...  But there are plenty of working line dogs out there that have everything you're looking for in them.....other than the "look".  

 I was just thinking that in another three generations in a worse case scenario....most SL dogs will be low drive etc and most WL dogs will have over the top drives and looking less and less like the classic GSD

Well, judging by many videos and the show lines I've seen in person....most of them already seemed to be low in drive, low intensity, couldn't handle pressure, etc. Of course not all are like that..... Most WL becoming over the top? I disagree with that.......My question to you, what is wrong with having a high drive dog? I don't mean hectic, crazy, so high drive that it's actually a problem....  Of course there are some like that, but I highly disagree that most will become like that. There are plenty out there with high drive WL dogs that live with the family, compete in SchH, and have no issues whatsoever in doing so.  And looking less like the classic GSD? Do you feel that the "classic" GSD is black/tan saddle back? Friend, go look back at the start of the Shepherds, take a gander at the dark sables in the very, very old pedigrees going back to the late 1800's, the ones who helped "start" the breed.....  Black/tan isn't necessarily "classic"...it's just what the public thinks all Shepherds look like, and anything else must be a mixed breed, wolf hybrid, coyote, or some other mutt.

Breeding for color and "gait" has been the demise of many ,many breeds. The same problem has happened with horses...breeding for palomino, Appaloosa coat pattern, paint. All the traits that make any of these animals "using" dogs, or horses were and still are overlooked and ignored for "the right look".

Having bred a WL x SL litter I'm going with Pot luck LOL

I knew the "classic" look would cause a stir...I didn't mean that the original GSD was a saddle back...just chose the word to make a point.  I am NOT knocking sable look...I just prefer the "saddle back'.  Why...cause I was raised with them...that simple.  There are some sables WL dogs that are beautiful...love the "wolf" look,  but I still prefer saddle back.  So please do not think I am knocking them.  From all the threads I have read on here it seems more people knock the SL than the WL...so this causes me some concern...not because I am thin skinned, but because where there is smoke there is usually fire.
There is nothing wrong with high drive...I am around them all the time.  One of the best drug / attack dogs I have EVER seen was about 18 yrs ago and sable.  I have NEVER seen a better drug dog!  But..we could NEVER bring that dog into a school for demonstrations because one of the kids might become a chew toy!!! HA  This beast would go through one of those "indestructable" stainless steel food bowls a week!  If he was bored...the dish was history looked like a crushed up aluminum can by the time he was done!!!  Knew another "high drive" GSD that gave his handler 120 stiches up one arm and down the other....because the dog apparently did not like being hugged.  I KNOW this is not the norm...just something to pay attention to.
I was actually hoping that by now someone would have responded saying.."Get with the program, there are several notable breeders already working on this"  Kind of worries me that I haven't heard that.  And to my WL friends...I am NOT knocking your dogs...you should take it as a compliment that I think you side can save the SL side...to some extent! 
Still curious if a Saddle back is bred to a sable...will all puppies always be sable?

The "stories" you mentioned about the guy needing stitches and the other dog would make kids a chew toy sound like training issues to me, high drive or not.  I've known plenty of high drive dogs that could be around kids, do demonstrations, etc, and I know a SchH trainer around here that actually does take her dogs in to schools.  In fact one GSD who was here in the past was extremely high drive, took him to stores......kids could literally hug him.  He was very high drive, but he wouldn't lash out if a kid had a toy, or if someone yelled, or if someone ran around, or whatever it could be.....totally stable in every store we went to no matter what was going on.

There used to be plenty of Saddle back dogs with great nerves, drive, and temperament. My saddleback dog in the service had incredible working traits. Out of over 200 working GS in Ft. Benning in the seveties, probably only 20 were sable. And these were really working dogs!! So there is nothing new under the sun.
Think about this.....Suppose you had two glasses of 20 marbles. The one glasse had 18 black and 2 white, the other had 10 white and 10 black. Then you randomly let 10 from each jar roll onto the floor to start a new jar. Do you know how difficult it would be to get a "balanced" jar??? This is similar to the genetics of the two lines and makes the "fantasy mix together have very poor chances of acheiving this middle you want. The savy breeders understand this and depending on their preference won't take the chance of mixing the jars for either balance or beauty.

That's awesome that you have the perfect dogs!!!! Now where do I find your dogs with the SL saddle look? :) 

  This quote sums things up very well. Crossing WL's with SL's has nothing to do with improving the breed as a whole, it only serves to correct severe shortcomings in SL's, while attempting to maintain a specific color and conformation. It's a flawed endeavor from the start and will never have any significant impact on the overall improvement of SL's.


The balance so many claim they are striving/looking for already exists, it's to bad most SL people choose not to see it.
 

 

Felloffher, I gotta agree with that, and with rare exception.

I have the feeling there'd be less complaining, if we'd just ignore the conformation and hear the cries to get the saddlebacked color pattern more widely spread through the workinglines.  There aren't many strong bloodlines that represent the B&T pattern; Tyson von der Schiffslache, Eick von der berger Hochburg, Dasty von der berger Hochburg are the only few I can think of at the moment.

But take note that it seems that the saddle is less defined when the genotype for the color is NOT homogenous for B&T alleles, making dogs that are black-factored (as the one in the pic above is) take on a blanketbacked appearance, instead of that "classic" (ha ha) saddlebacked look.

So, because of that, you're looking at requiring a couple generations to get a^t+a^t genotypes assembled.  This is all assuming the results have retained their best working qualities and are worthwhile to breed to when you get that far.  That's a lot of long term risk for a breeder to be focusing on color.