WL + SL = BL??? - Page 20

Felloffher:

Look, I get it...  You won't be convinced even if the evidence comes and bites you in the Kiester...  Part of the reason that this is a recurring topic is because these crosses are seldom done with top specimens of their lines...  I only went and looked at dogs out of a particular WL stud.  Apparently, the owner either had no qualms in taking money from the owners of showline bitches, or he knew enough, and felt secure enough in his achievements to try this.  The dog Finsterling D'Ulmenthal was part of a three dog progeny group for his sire, Javir Vom Talka Marda, who competed at the BSZS that year (2009) and came in something like V54.

Have you ever stopped to think that WL judges, breeders and owners can be just snobbish as the worst examples of SL snobs?  The comment as to the bar being set low, is inane.  For SL's to be bred for a stronger temperament and greater reactiv and civil aggression, the SV will have to "move the bar" either by strengthening the standard on the working portions of competition, easing the satndards that are an obstacle for WL dogs to show remotely well, or making the Universal Sieger equal to the top Show and Work  titles.

The betterment of the Breed... Now there's a catchy term that is used more than a hooker on pay day when the fleet is in...  One could say that avoiding genetic bottlenecks is for "the betterment of the breed", yet we have breeders from both lines using an ever smaller pool of genetic material.  You speak of "for this to be considered an improvent, dogs from these breedings would need to traverse into other fields of work and perform at a high level on a consistant basis"...  Have you seen any signifficant number of red & black WL dogs hold their own on a show ring?

What you fail to realize is that the issue is not "color and conformation" because there are plenty of WL dogs that are red and black.  On the one hand, re-opening competition in the BSZS to dogs of all colors acceptable under the breed standard would do wonders for the competition as you may begin to see some WL breeders begin to factor that into their breeding calculations. On the other hand, and this is the one you miss, the market for SL dogs is substantially greater than that for WL dogs.  And Cash is king...  So get used to the idea that in the best of cases, WL's should be on even footing in conformation regardless of color.

And time will tell, but the recent examples I trotted out today, would seem to indicate that this is an idea many good breeders have toyed with, and others will too.  In a way, this, as an outcross, is good for the long term health of the breed.

Hi Gucci! 
Well then, that does sound like a very nice dog and good looks. Figured you would know
a lot more about Lupo than I do. :)

Charlie, great points in your post!

Charlie,

 I have no problem recognizing a good dog, regardless of which line it came from. My issue is the majority of SL's are sub-standard in almost every category and the good examples you or anyone else provide are anomalies within the line. You can lay the blame for this on substandard breeding stock, but the fact remains breeders are selecting dogs based on superficial qualities.

I haven't really given much thought about the attitudes of dog people, we are all nuts. How is it that my comment about the bar being set to low is inane? You talk about raising the bar in your next sentence???? Cash is king as you put it, so do you really see the SV raising the bar? Could the organization, breeders, handlers and judges handle that hit to the pocket book? Hey, on the bright side if they let WL's show there would be a whole new generation of dog enthusiasts that could jump on board breeding for that all so prestigious VA rating. Wouldn't it be great for the breed?

 For the betterment of the breed is a nice catchy phrase isn't it? After all, the most important quality a GSD posseses is beauty and if it works that's a bonus. The genetic bottleneck you speak of is more prevelant in SL's then in WL's. Granted many WL breeders are flocking to the big names in Sch. and linebreeding the crap out of them for the almighty buck. However, if a breeder isn't chained to the trends, there is still enough genetic diversity in the lines to find a total outcross and with a well thought out breeding plan this should be the case in years to come. This is not the case for SL breeders, other wise they wouldn't be looking to WL's to solve their problems.

 Your "so what if the dog can work, can it hold it's own in the showring" argument is weak and has no merit. The fundemental goals of each line share almost nothing in common and many would argue the WL for the most part has maintained the breed standard, while the SL's have gone a stray. Given the current state of the SL GSD, why would a WL breeder want to alter their breeding program in order to conform to a standard that they don't subscribe to? Furthermore, given the track record of SL's over the past 40 years, other then popularity, what if anything indicates the direction they took has been a success?

 So, because there are black & red WL's confirmation and color are no longer the issue? Care to elaborate on this? 

 There is no disputing that the SL's are in way higher demand then WL's and the market will dictate the direction many choose, but not all breeders are in it for the money. If breeding what's popular and what sells dictates the direction of your breeding progam, all the power to you. Just remember sheep are always led to slaughter.  

 There will always be a market all be it a small one, for GSD's that have proper working stucture, stability, drive  and courage to work in a wide variety of jobs or as faithful companions. This is the true representative of the breed and it has been my experience many people are drawn to the working line for this reason.
 
 

That is good to know Gustav,  I am preparing to use the frozen on one of my Gucci  Grand daughters, as I see Gucci showing up in this generation.  Lupo lived his last 2 years in my house,  and trained me to do a "BH" with him....We passed..Thanks, Lida

This dog just did nicely at USCA Seiger show and has an interesting pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=623065
 
As does his sire:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=322632 

Felloffher:

Well, that would be fine if we were arguing SL vs WL’s, but the thread is about crossing WL and SL’s, and the ""good examples" I’ve provided are precisely relevant to the question. My argument on "breeding stock" is my opinion that most often, when this is done, one of the parents will be of good quality and the other not so much..

I agree that most dog people can be a little nutty. The low bar comment is inane in that if the bar is set low, there would be a slew of properly conformed WL dogs scoring highly in the BSZS, yet they shine by their absence. And yes, they should raise the bar in order to force breeders to put some hardness and temperament into the SL’s. If they let WL’s into the BSZS, the majority of WL breeders would have to re-think their breeding objectives to remain preeminent even at a regional level. And that would be great for the breed in the long run.

The genetic bottleneck has already become apparent in the SL’s, but it is imminent in WL’s. Just look at the top dogs on any given year and how the same names keep popping up. One thing is to linebreed because you are striving for a particular set of traits, but another thing is to do so to have a catchy classified ad. BTW, if you ask the dyed in the wool SL breeders, many will deny that their lines have a problem. Just like WL breeders will.he fundamental goal of the breed is to both work and be aesthetic. Let’s be clear on something here… The Matins may have sent the SL’s down a primrose path, but the WL’s in general went down another path and with a relatively small group of them breeding dogs that kept true to the old ways such as the Saltztanblick and a few others where the dog is correct yet pleasing to the eye. As to your rationale of: "Given the current state of the SL GSD, why would a WL breeder want to alter their breeding program in order to conform to a standard that they don't subscribe to? Furthermore, given the track record of SL's over the past 40 years, other then popularity, what if anything indicates the direction they took has been a success?", I can only tell you that they either do it because it is interesting to them, they actually believe in it, or for the stud fee.

I think that conformation will always be an issue, it is even at the Judge level. Color may be losing its hold at least in the US. Wayco’s NASS results may not be so unusual in the future. I know of a half brother to my SL female, out of a WL female that has excellent protection and conformation and is a beautiful red sable.

Just like in WL’s, cash will dictate the direction. Look at how training has directed the breeding for drives… If you breed for yourself, and the pups you sell are just a by-product of the one you kept, then you are probably going about it in a proper, or at least true way. But the truth is that in both lines there are kennels that crank out large numbers of litters per year and while they may keep a few of these. They are commercial concerns. This is just a reality.

To say that the average WL dog of today is a typical representation of the breed is just the same as saying the same of American Showlines. Those who purchase or breed the better blood lines in WL’s deserve the respect they’ve earned. But if there were more breedersbreeding dogs like the crosses I cited earlier, youo’d see a market for them too. Django vom Nachrodter Hof is the kind of dog that many would like to have and should be produced more often.

As soon as the WL dogs are excepted into the show ring regardless of color....the breed is doomed. unless the conformation of showring is changed.

Any time anything becomes trendy,  a problem starts!  The downfall of the WL will not be the show ring. WL breeders need to wake up and smell the coffee.  There is a disturbing trend toward black sables.  Do you know how many black sables with really really poor temperment I am getting in for training at the moment??????  I love black sables, BUT I am not willing to give up temperment to get that color!  Yes they are amazing to look at BUT is the temperment really that great.  I used to get excited when I was getting a czech dog in for training, not so much anymore.  They used to have amazing working ability but it is being watered down.  Any time anything becomes a trend it becomes dangerous.  Trendy lines and trendy sires will always be a problem. 


PS I know there are great black sables on the podium at the moment,  I am just saying people really need to look in their own backyards.........I've been doing this since the 80's and I really would like a dog the calibre of what was working then.  Ironically I have a showline bitch here that we all keep saying damn when she works.  Will she reproduce it?  only time will tell.
The show ring is NOT the devil here.  Current laws make owning a dog who can actually work next to impossible, the pet market can not handle having proper working temperment.  There are many many factors.  Easy to point fingers at SL or wonder what crossing a WL with a SL will do.  There are more sl so easy to point fingers.....

SL conformation is not really good working conformation....so then a breeder has to determine their priorites....do you want structure that will still handle 6 ft straight walls, and long tedious work in the field or do you want the heavy excessive shoulder and angulation that you see in the show ring but does not seem to translate to other working venues. There is a difference in the structure of Arras vom Haus Helma, or Mutz vd Peltztierferm or Marko vom Cellerland and the dogs in the ring today....big difference. The above dogs produced nice athlectic working stock that you saw in working venues. There are hundreds of thousands of the SL type dog today, most are not shown though from the same show litters, YET you seldom see them in the strenous work venues the breed used to excell at....how can that be explained if the structure is correct?

Charlie,

 Perhaps I wasn't very clear, but I was reffering to the criteria used to select dogs for a cross. Posts on this site are a perfect example, look at the examples of WL dogs that the show line folks recommend for breeding. The dogs are usually selected based on appearance, then on pedigree with very little emphasis placed on drive, character or if the dog produces it. So, in that respect I agree poor choices are being made when selecting breeding stock. However, generaly speaking this will continue to be the status quo unless the mentality of breeders changes.

 It will probably come as a shock to you, but I own a female who's sire is a WLxSL cross.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=669512

Before you call me a hypocrite review her pedigree. This was a breeding done by kennels with intimate knowledge of the dogs in the pedigree with a specific goal in mind, to improve confirmation. Tight linebreeding on Cordon, a significant producer known for stamping his genetics in a line was used to ensure the overall qualities of the line weren't compromised. Looking at the improvement in structure between my female and her dam I would say it was successful from a working breeders standpoint. Would it be something I would incorporate? Probably not. 

 If we look at my females sire and breed him back to a SL bitch with the intent of producing show dogs, how many generations will it take before we reach the same bottleneck and require another WL outcross? The WL breeder is looking to make minor improvements in their line while progressively moving forward. The SL breeder is outcrossing to make major improvements, but in subsequent generations they breed back to the lines that are causing them issues. This may not be the case for all SL breeders, but I believe this will be the crux for most.

 It's tough to argue that the modern GSD working in various roles such as police, military, SAR or any other field demanding the highest caliber of dogs has deviated from the original GSD's in terms of looks, character and drive. Comparing SL's of any type to these working dogs is simply ingnoring the breed standard and the role in which they were intended to serve.