WL + SL = BL??? - Page 3

Gustav, Felloffher and Darylehret,  Thank you for the excellent explanations.  The balanced marble jar was great!  Darylehret...you lost me at "alleles" but I am working on it.  I do understand the long term risk...but I would think the reward and the challenge might make it interesting.
I am definately going to check out  Tyson von der Schiffslache, Eick von der berger Hochburg, Dasty von der berger Hochburg !  Felloffher,  you are right...I was being selfish in trying to correct the SL side!
Thanks again for the info!

The OP has actually annoyed me with a couple of pretty ignorant comments. How do you know your dog could do Schutzhund? If you're too busy to train a dog because you have 4 kids (what's with that as an excuse anyway?) you will never know if he could or not.

If you think the "saddle" look is classic then I say classic to what?

In my opinion, your equation will mostly look like this: WL + SL = Weaker working line. The exceptions would be very rare.

nypiper127
 
         "while our GSD WL and SL sides were busy picking each other apart, the malanois was busy taking over...I loved that post"

You are right.....Malinois have been busy taking over....... by focusing on working ability not color or conformation. Good luck



Mike


(BTW-the ugly working line dog in my avatar is V rated, KKL 1, multiple times SCH 3, HOT, and I have 5 kids)
 








 ""    

To the OP for what it's worth, my male is a son of Eick von der berger Hochburg and he is an absolute dream of a balanced dog in my opinion.

Some of his littermates are intense enough to be doing French Ring over in Europe.  My boy's protection is everything I could ask from him, power, intensity, full calm grip, hard hitting, strong civil aggression.   Then, at the same time, this is the dog who thinks the sun rises and sets on little children and who has helped my family by acting as my special needs nephew's therapy dog.

So when you talk of wanting the balance, I have to say this dog's working lines produced that balance, IMHO.   The only thing he does not have that you want is he's a sable, not a B&T like his father.

Here are some other well-known workingline dogs that are not sables, with V rated conformation:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=445826

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=123666 

I've got an eye on this kennel in Canada, that has a male from these lines, Eik von den Wolfen:
 
http://www3.bell.net/lindenhof/ 

(Okay, I DO hope they are working on getting him titled! And it really ticks me off that the picture on their website is actually of Falk, not Eik, even if they DO say he's the spitting image of his grandfather!)

I also like Tyson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UcOUq67ebs  

Holy Hannah....it never ceases to amaze me how certain people just seem to want to argue.  If you take the time to read my posts I have gone above and beyond to compliment the working lines.  I have stated how their athletisime = beauty and how very simply, their "look" is not appealing to ME!  If you believe that EVERYONE should like your dogs look (be it SL or WL) then their is no way to have a normal conversation.  And as to why having four kids makes it hard to compete in Schutzhund...I will not even answer that.
Maybe it's the owners that have the excessive high drives....not the dogs!  Sunsilver....thank you for the informative answer.  I have been looking thru pedigrees looking for exactly that.  But  now it seems that if one of those were bred with a good SCH 3 SL it is still a crap shoot..(back to Gustav's previous post about the jar of marbles).  I am guessing that it would at least stack the odds in favor of getting a few good "saddleback"  working puppies out of that litter?

I would think so. Puppies are a craphsoot, though. I have a female that's a total outrcross, and has 3 generations of good hips behind her. She's mildly dysplastic in one hip.

The problem with crossing different lines is that the lines have become so different it's almost like breeding to another breed. And many breeders would never in a million years do such an outrcross, because they believe they are getting 'shit on their gold'. I forget what well-known breeder said that, but it's an actual quote. I think it represent the ultimate in kennel blindness and tunnel vision.

BTW, back in the early days of the GSD in the States, breeders often didn't use linebreeding, but bred like to like. It seemed to work out okay, but without the risk of genetic problems posed by linebreeding and inbreeding. (reference: The Total GSD, by Fred Lanting).

SL can and do get Sch3 some in all prey and some in defense, if it's done in prey you're not getting the 'total package'. You may luck out and find a saddleback that is working line but as has been said before a ton of times on various threads it probably only weakens the Wl to breed to SL though I personally think SL breeders wouldn't hurt to add some WL to their stock to strengthen it. I don't choose for color, i personally hate black and tan but if I found the perfect dog I would get over it. IMy dream GSD is black, I lucked out and found (sight unseen after the deposit had been paid) out my new pup was black. Good luck!

Sunsilver, isn't Eliot von Prevent a bicolor?  I thought of Falk, but I didn't want to say he was a strong producer, becuase I don't know.

Kennel blindness if you DO and kennel blindness if you DON'T, seems like the term kennel blindness is just used to describe ANYthing when someone happens to disagree with a breeder's choice.  Stupid word.

If US breeders bred like to like, how the heck did we get ASL as a result?  I think that's just a simplified comment to discourage inbreeding.  I respect the knowledge of Fred Lanting, and have been invited to visit with him, but I think we would have much to disagree on.

But is it fair to breed a litter of eight knowing that probably only three will have working qualities. Or in the reverse, why would anyone want to breed to a dog that even if the nerves ar good, many of the littermates aren't????? I mean we should view weak nerves like bad hips.....stay as far from it as possible regardless of looks or working. The problem isn't the cross.....the problem is if you do a cross for example....WHERE do you go with those progeny. That's where most breeders cave into their likes as opposed to what's good for the breed. If one side has 10 generations of backmassing on the same dogs, you introduce a cross, then GO RIGHT BACK to the backmassed dogs again....you haven't done sh_t. And this is what some breeders want to do to reach the middle. If you are way out of cinque genetically, then it will take generations to make it back to the middle. People don't have the love for the breed to do that, instead they cave to the love of their likes.