WL + SL = BL??? - Page 4

Hi I've seen more balance temperaments in WL's in the last 10 years than in SL's. Not all WL's have over the top drives that can't shut off. My wl's are wonderful with children & even do therapy work with disable children.
Many of our WL offspring have become Autism  service dogs for children. The WL's you describ on your department didn't sound like they had corrct temperament / training.

These are dogs that are WL's that are black & tan in color, almost all are offspring out of Falk von den Wölfen
 , 1 because he tends to produce the color & structure your seeking,            he Falk's offspring should have the color, structure, & temperament your seeking. Plus he was bred to many SL's because of his qualities in improving drives, structure & rich color.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=397495 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=429575 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=698013 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=495824 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1353111

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=547972 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=478657


 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=512990

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=490553              

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=490792 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=426873 
 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=523318


 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=675492 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=675492


 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=752327 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=425489 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=465203 


 

darylehret , I didn't say he was a saddleback, which is what the OP is looking for. I just said he WASN'T a sable. Okay, my original post said he was a blanketback, then I corrected it...   You must have read the earlier version.

When Fred was talking about the early days, he was talking REALLY early days, PRE Lance. As any student of the American lines knows, Lance was when the wheels started to fall of the American bandwagon...  Lance wasn't such a bad dog himself, but the amount of inbreeding that was done on him and his sons totally messed things up.

If I had the time, I'd look up the actual quote, but it's a gorgeous day out there, and my two acres of grass are getting totally out of control... I think he might have mentioned Longworth as one of the kennels that bred like to like.

And as for the 'shit on your gold' quote, anyone who thinks the dogs other than the ones he/she breeds are 'shit' has a SERIOUS problem! 

CP, the Lindhof website I linked to two posts back gives testimonials from customers that back up what you said about Falk and his offspring!

Now I REALLY have to get off this damn time-sucking computer!



 

Gustav,

Sir, if a breeder breeds his/her show bitch to a very good wl male of very good structure and a sound work ability background, and breeder's aim is to eastablish a new better "show line" then the breeder should be ready to give the not so good puppies free or at a low price to pet or sport homes with a condition not to breed. If, say, in three litters breeder can keep home one very good female then that is in my opinion is a step in the right direction, then breeds this female to show male and keeps the best female, then again crosses with a wl male and repeats the process till he/she has several bitches that can work and are very good in structure, uniform in type and temperament then that is a new show line of strong temperament with several bitches to continue with. Several males can be developed in same process too but from different blood. If we only think on one generation basis we get nowhere, it's a long process but of valuable goal.
Ibrahim

Good point Ibrahim on giving away the other littermates.  Gustav has a good point on continuing down the correct line and not going right back to the backmassed dogs. Darylehret not only commented, but offered a plan on this earlier saying "They say "cull hard" on your line bred litters, but on the total outcrosses, I say "cull harder"! I would recommend anyone that does a show/working cross, go directly toward inbreeding rather tightly afterwards (with a workingline dog, of course), perhaps a 2-3 or 3-2 on some given producer who is prolific (widely used), so that with greater certainty can help to re-establish a more predictable homozygous genotype "  He and Gustav obviously have a great working knowledge of genetics and should therefore be nominated to undertake this endeavor!  I need a second on the motion! Ha
Sunsilver, I love Tyson (and apparently so does everyone else)!  So in my naive thinking (before this arguement) I would think breeding Tyson to a great SCH2 WL female would give me the results I desire...now I see it is not that easy!  Also when you say "like to like" what do you mean? Just two similar dogs in appearence and temperment?

Tyson is a WL dog.

So basically you are saying WL to WL.  I thought you wanted SL in there?

Yes, exactly. Breeding by phenotype (outward appearance) rather than genotype.

One barrier you're overlooking when you're talking about doing these outcrosses is the politics involved. This article by Koos Hassing should give you an idea as to how difficult this might be:

http://www.prlog.org/10507451-word-from-mr-koos-hassing-tiekerhook-german-shepherd-kennel-holland-part-one.html 

Ibrahim, I think that idea is wasteful.  Then you flood the market with multiple generations of free pups, in a world of greedy breeders, and owners who respect nothing given freely, when there aren't enough homes to go around for better fit pups as it is.  It would only make market waves that would negatively impact both sides of the coin, show and working, breeders and buyers.

The showline folk should perhaps re-start from scratch, COMPLETELY from the genepool of the most original-like and fittest of the two varieties, and lessons of the past mindfully behind them each step of the way.

RLHAR, Shhhhh!  Don't tell him!

Kinda helps make my point that adding the B&T color alone to the WL's would help satisfy most, and would probably greatly upset the cashflow of the showline community to boot!  ;-)

GSDGUY08,  I did not respond because you seem to think that WL lines could NEVER have a problem dog.  And this dog was not a problem per say...when the you know what hit the fan...that was a dog I wanted on my side.  It seems you think there are no problem dogs that it must be the training.  These dogs are purchased from a VERY reputable trainer who hand picks the dogs and then trains the dogs and their handlers for 16 weeks.  The K-9 unit then train weekly (as well as doing REAL police work).  When this trainer gave my buddy the dog..he warned him about the dogs over the top drive and told my buddy that if he did not take him he would probably not pass the dog to anyone else.  My buddy is a VERY experienced K9 handler and that is why the trainer was willig to give it to him.  Now since this is probably not what you wanted to hear...you will think it is another "story".  As for the "chew toy" comment...it was in response to someone asking what was wrong with really high drives! I have admitted that I see problems in some of the SL dogs...yet you seem unable to do the same with WL.  Can't be the dog...must be training.  OK