Milo's Necropsy Report - Page 16

"What I am voicing my concern over is the blanket statement that Phase C is nothing more than 'biting a sleeve'." 

Which I never said. Just that there's lots of ways to train and evaluate a dog and SchH is only one of them. It's not right for everyone, probably not for most people. I think SchH is great if you're into it. But it doesn't tell me what I want to know about a dog. So it's not like OFA or hip scoring for me. Or for the guide dog schools. It is for you and that's great. But there are lots of other ways to work with a dog that will make a real strong bond and tell you whether he's got the right stuff. It just depends on what you want to do with him.

---> Marjorie, I don't know any breeders who do that, so I'm not sure how to respond to that question 

Sadly, I do, Blitzen :(Because this breeder has champions, they get away with it. However, with all the litters they have  out of their champions, I guess sometimes if you throw enough crap against a wall, eventually some of it sticks, and some of the pups will become champions, and they will be bred, passing along doubled up epilepsy genes (if there is such a thing, which there probably is. They just dont have the science to prove that yet, even though you can see it in family lines.) This person has 20 puppies at a time on their  premisis, constantly, yet  is awarded breeder of merit by the AKC due to Chic  tests of sire and dams. It makes me sick. The AKC is so screwed up, it needs to be disbanded. Reporting this breeder to the GSDCA would do no good, as they didnt even do anything over that horrid abuse case I brought before them. Meanwhile the pups of chic tested sires and dams make for great puppy advertisements, and little do the uneducated buyers know, the pups are doubled up on epilepsy :( It breaks my heart. God only knows how many litters per year this person produces. I always see pups advertised from that kennel. Person has unsold pups from previous litters yet keeps on breeding. Titles, chic tests, breeders award of merit do not change the fact that this person is a puppy mill, IMHO. There is another who breeds like that and sells (*rehoming fees* of course) unsold pups on craigslist. What responsible breeder would put pups on craigslist for research labs and abusers to pick off?? IMHO, that should be immediate grounds for expulsion from a dog club, in ANY breed.

JonRob, love your posts. You are saying the same thing I was trying to say, but did it better.

I know schutzhund is far more than biting a sleeve, but I don't believe it is the ONLY valid test of a GSDs value. As you pointed out, a Sch. titled dog isn't necessarily good with kids or with the handicapped, or someone who steps on his tail. In my world, those things are important. My dogs are out in the real world, visiting stores and public events where they interact with all sorts of people, not all of whom treat them politely. I just had two bratty kids follow me around the grocery store tonight, yelling and giggling, and shouting "LOOK! DOGGY!" One of them was wearing flip flops, which he used to deliberately make loud slapping noises on the floor. Fortunately, their mom corraled them just as I was about to give them a piece of my mind. Star sat by my grocery cart throughout it, calmly watching them. Once or twice she looked up at me, as if to say, "What the HECK are those kids doing?"

I've had my other service dog, Ranger, in a crowded, dark room, with loud music booming, and he was FAR more relaxed than I was. In the course of a 3 day convention, his first serious outing as my service dog, he tolerated having his tail and feet stepped on, seieing people in all sorts of weird costumes, being in a con room where the floor was covered with snack debris (and never even bothering with it after I told him 'leave it'!)  What else? Oh, yeah. He probably save my life, too, when, on our bedtime walk, I fell into a snow-covered fence post hole and was unable to get out. To me, having a dog I can trust in all situations is far more important than a schutzhund degree.

BTW, Baugh, when you checked Patchwork's website, you missed that they title most of their dogs in herding, and also do agility and obedience with them, though only the herding titles show up with the dog's names. Some of the dogs are temperament tested and have their CGC. Not the most important titles in the world, but something your average BYB certainly wouldn't bother with.

JonRob, your post at 02.06 was excellent. 

 Mike, I hope your new pup is everything that you hope for, after your terrible experience with Milo. 

I hope you will post some more photos as he grows, and let us know how he is doing.

jonrob,
 GREAT POSTS!!!

Sadly, I do, Blitzen :(Because this breeder has champions, they get away with it. However, with all the litters they have  out of their champions, I guess sometimes if you throw enough crap against a wall, eventually some of it sticks, and some of the pups will become champions, and they will be bred, passing along doubled up epilepsy genes (if there is such a thing, which there probably is. They just dont have the science to prove that yet, even though you can see it in family lines.) This person has 20 puppies at a time on their  premisis, constantly, yet  is awarded breeder of merit by the AKC due to Chic  tests of sire and dams. It makes me sick. The AKC is so screwed up, it needs to be disbanded. Reporting this breeder to the GSDCA would do no good, as they didnt even do anything over that horrid abuse case I brought before them. Meanwhile the pups of chic tested sires and dams make for great puppy advertisements, and little do the uneducated buyers know, the pups are doubled up on epilepsy :( It breaks my heart. God only knows how many litters per year this person produces. I always see pups advertised from that kennel. Person has unsold pups from previous litters yet keeps on breeding. Titles, chic tests, breeders award of merit do not change the fact that this person is a puppy mill, IMHO. There is another who breeds like that and sells (*rehoming fees* of course) unsold pups on craigslist. What responsible breeder would put pups on craigslist for research labs and abusers to pick off?? IMHO, that should be immediate grounds for expulsion from a dog club, in ANY breed.
I agree that is a very unfortunate situation and 20 puppies on the ground is probably a very low number (if we are talking about the same breeder).  According to their web site, they currently have 11 litters on the ground.  Even if the average litter is 5 pups, that is 55.  I have filed a complaint on ripoffreport.com for the sole purpose of hopefully preventing a prospective buyer from getting sucked into a nightmare, like I did.  I also sent a copy of it to Mr Dan Yee, president of the WDA.  I probably will not get a response, but it is public record that the breeder I am referring to is still on probation for unethical practices (tail breaking and coloring).

Mike

"You don't get to be the GSD czar and make the rest of us dance to your integrity tune."

It isn't my integrity tune, it's the originator of the breed's.  It's his dog; he gets to do that and you don't get to arbitrarily change it just because you're too inexperienced a trainer or too weak a handler for this breed.  If you want to breed a Golden Retriever in a GSD body, do that but call it JonRob's Frou-frou Fifi Dog or whatever else you'd like; don't call it a German Shepherd Dog.

"Just keep the important stuff like brains and judgment and guts and soundness and health and that incredible spark that only a GSD has."

And how do you know that if, like Patchwork, you do nothing with your dogs?  The entire spectrum of dogs you describe in your posts can be found in litters from titled and breed surveyed parents.  Doing nothing to prove breedworthiness tells you exactly that about your dogs' abilities and temperament...nothing.

"My ideal GSD is the guide dog who would give his life in a heartbeat to save his owner but could care less about biting for sport."

So, a dog with natural defense...

"The one who does his job patiently and happily. Who just quietly shifts away when his tail gets stepped on."

So, a dog with no defense...

Sounds to me like you don't know what you want...or what you're talking about...or both. 

Too many people come to this forum looking for validation for their poor breeding choices and too many people like you are more than willing to give it to them.  Spend your money any way that makes happy but don't expect people like me not to call you out on it.

I sure hope the next time some of the board favorites who do zip before breeding their dogs or who never make good on contracts but who are bold enough to come here showing cutsie photos of their newest litters  are held to the same standard. So far their puppies are gushed over and promoted as being great workings and  prospects when their are no hip or elbow xrays,  no health checks whatsoever, and in one case a dog that could not pass OFA was the sire. IMO Mike has a much better chance of getting a nice GSD from Patchwork who at least does the basics than a breeder who does zip but who still enjoys protection on the PDB.

Marj, I agree that on the surface it looks as if the GSDCA should do better. The breed club I use to belong to tried to discipline members for doing similar things as you have just talked about.They got sued and had to empty their treasury to compensate a member who the court ruled was libeled when his membership was suspended for conduct not in the best interests of the breed and club. This is a sue crazy country, AKC parent clubs, the WDA, etc hands are tied when it comes to discipling members.

"I sure hope the next time some of the board favorites who do zip before breeding their dogs or who never make good on contracts but who are bold enough to come here showing cutsie photos of their newest litters  are held to the same standard. So far their puppies are gushed over and promoted as being great workings and  prospects when their are no hip or elbow xrays,  no health checks whatsoever, and in one case a dog that could not pass OFA was the sire."

I'd be interested in you directing me to any post of mine in which I've done that.