do you believe yr east/czech peds - Page 11

aaykay... you purchased your 2 czech dogs because you are convinced they are the best dogs available for your purposes "bar none" :) could you enlighten us with some pics or video of your dogs proving that statement?

vomeisenhaus: could you enlighten us with some pics or video of your dogs proving that statement?

Why ?  Based on your prior responses in several other threads, you are not a clean-minded fellow, trying to enlighten yourself on things.  You are sniffing around to cause trouble, and I personally am not inclined to oblige you.   How is that for the purpose of "proving my statement" ? Don't intend to waste any more time on you.

why not? not looking for trouble. just asking you to back up your bold statement as i do not like to see people mislead.

Guddu said: The second argument you keep repeating is that the mixed breeding would be detected by the warden for upto 5 generations. This is also a weak argument. I think more like 3-4 generations. At 3 gen the wolf content would be 12.5%, 4 generation would be 6.25%, and at 5 gen about 3.125 %.

You missing my point. First of all  4 or 5 generations . Who cares?  Your percentages are fine, but the problem with this is that  to breed dogs is not like making arithmetic averages. There are different laws in play namely Mendelian laws.  Thus what  I am saying is  that within at least 5 generations there would be dogs/pups  in litters which would look like wolfs or would have obvious traits of a wolf. That would cause cancelation of such entire breeding by breed warden and serious investigation of such cause and heads would roll so to speak. . Or if the breeder of such crosses   would be  culling  or hide such pups and sell the one which do not look like wolfs or have such traits then those pups too would often produce pups with wolf traits. Can you imagine a person who would buy such pup for breeding and bred it to a GSD and produced some wolf like  pups?! That would be an uproar which in country of size and type of Czech would probably made national news! And it would most definitely be known to every serious breeder of GSDs in Czechoslovakia.

As far as Stephanitz  goes he was dead set against introducing wolf into GSD and denies the wolf being in some dogs like Hektor v Schwaben's dam Mores Plieningen. Some of the Thuringian dogs which were used in initial creation of GSD like Horanad v Grafrath SZ1 and 4 dogs between numbers SZ 41 and SZ 76  had supposedly wolf crosses ( and not hybrids as you improperly name them) .  But that has nothing to do with topic at hand and it is discussed widely all over the literature involving GSDs. 
If anyone is interested in this topic then I would refer them to this website:
http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100106000914AAPJlyZ

http://www2.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.htm

Prager Hans
P.S. I am not going to comment on  statements like corruption was higher in East then in West. Except that corruption was probably not as sophisticated in East then it  was and is in the West. 
Hans

since we are now talking about wolves  - another breed that actually still herds sheep for a living the Kelpie has an intereresting footnote to the dingo, the dingo was certainly used in some prolific lines but never put in the then hand-written (if at all) pedigrees. the purpose of the cross was specifically for heat tolerance, stamina and toughness. the original dogs were collies from the UK that had good herding  but lacked the the heat tolerance being bred essentially in a cold climate and moved to a colony which was brutaaly hot and dry. the first and early progeny of the cross was never worked, they were crossed again with the non-dingoes several times untill a workable dog emerged. the people that did the crosses did it carefully and admit there is no workable traits that are contibuted by wild species other than those sought the rest of the traits were diluted as fast and as much as possible eg timidness, independence, lack of biddability etc. another reason the cross was kept secret is that the pups would have been shot by farmers who have a morbid hatred of wild dogs due to stock losses. fawn Kelpies, timidness and chicken killers are still prevail in many lines and could well be attributed to the early crosses.

the more urbanised and further from nature we get there seems to be a bigger and bigger fascination with that which is wild. people closer to the land that actually work dogs KNOW there are no traits valuable to working dogs that wild species possess. that won't stop city folks wanting that bit of the wolf tho sitting in their homes to romanticise about (dumb asses). there is always unscrupulous people that will seed this growing roamnce with "the other" for money. the wild species will only suffer with this romantic view - best choice if you love the wild species - LEAVE THEM ALONE.

We were discussing whether some mixing with wolf blood could have happened in recent lines to GSD lines in the czech/slovak region. The issue at hand is not whether it is a good idea to do such a breeding (separate discussion)

I've been reading all of this with some interest, although I will admit to getting a little dizzy as the topic revolves.....

COULD there possibly be some wolf blood? Sure. Obviously there COULD be a little Irish in any of us.

I have spoken to those very close to the zPS breeding program and been assured that all lines reaching back to the hybrid experiment were ceased. 

I accept that is the case, but I also know that sometimes a dog jumps a fence and mates a bitch when no one is looking.  It seems to happen quite a bit in sme kennels in the UK , so I am sure it could happen elsewhere. The point is, we can never truly know. And I do not, truly, care! 

Oh, I should have mentioned...I own a DNA tested and certified pure bred GSD that has a real hint of APBT in her appearance. Head shape, tail set, bite pressure(!) and a short, close coat. Anyone explain that? 

the dog has a breed survey class 1, is titled and show rated, yet even a layman in the street can see she looks a little different. 

Are you sure its not wolf...as opposed to APBT  Do you have any pictures handy ?

The usual DNA testing is unlikely to indicate if there is a mix of APBT, or even if it is pure gsd..very few people would know how to differentiate.
No breeder will tell you about all the skeletons in the closet....all of us have a few. Even breeders with small kennels have accidental breedings...but in this case the wolf-gsd mix breedings were intentional...question being did any of them make it to the main gsd pool!. 

Anyway, this was a good discussion, somehow reminds me of Clinton saying "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"...Hillary who was close to Bill, apparently believed it (initially), others did not. 

Can someone tell me is it possible that in the past we have had czechoslovak (CKSP) dogs registered without info about dam or sire ?. 
Was it necessary to have dam and sire info for registration of dog in data base...if so how many generations back.