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by vk4gsd on 04 January 2013 - 01:01
what is this about DNA test?? i thought all dogs shared 90% + DNA of wolves??? a vet selling his own line of RAW products has this statement plastered all over his packaging as a marketting tool justifying giving dogs a RAW diet (his formulation of course).
by Keith Grossman on 04 January 2013 - 01:01
aaykay; we're all glad that you are crazy about your "Czech" dog but can you do us all a favor and quit speaking to things about which you know nothing? How old were you when the wall came down?
by guddu on 04 January 2013 - 01:01
vk4gsd:
GSD's and other dogs are supposedly originated from wolves, thousands of years ago. The usual reason for storing DNA these days is to prove paternity/lineage/disease diagnosis. Its much harder to detect for example 1/8th wolf mix or less because the methods are not well developed for any practical commercial application.
GSD's and other dogs are supposedly originated from wolves, thousands of years ago. The usual reason for storing DNA these days is to prove paternity/lineage/disease diagnosis. Its much harder to detect for example 1/8th wolf mix or less because the methods are not well developed for any practical commercial application.
by Prager on 04 January 2013 - 20:01
Guddu you present here pictures of dogs which have wolf several generations in past. Yes those are hard to recognize on a picture. But if you would have a litter from dog like Pedro some pups would look like wolf and some like GSD and if breed warden would see that then such litter would not be allowed, also the fur and teeth would be quite different also as Aakay says there is a problem with temperament and workability. These dogs were totally useless as working dogs and they or their ( presumably fake ) progeny would not have a chance to pass breed survey or get titles and thus would not be allowed into further breeding program. Have you ever seen wolf cross as far as temperament goes? As I have said I have seen only recently first CV pass ZVV1 title. And that was the best of the best CVs !!! And he barely made it. The dog was shy and unapproachable by strangers. I have seen him with my own eyes.
The next point is there were no wolfs available in Czech which could be used for breeding by private citizens. None.
The rest were part of the military breeding program . They were all identifiable by tattoo. Yes to fuel your fire I will say that there were breeding of CV s which were shared with private citizens.But that was CV program and those dogs were in infancy and thus useless as working dogs absolutely not capable of being titled.
The use of CV or F2 or higher descendant of Wolf x GSD mix is possible but not likely. When the CV (CV = Ceskoslovensky vlcak - Czechoslovak wolfdog ) Pedro was used the breed was not stabilized and temperament of the progeny was useless.
To use your Occam's razor then probability is very small that this would happen. Anything is possible but I would say not so. There was no desire to do so. CV were such desire and it fail. The people who do like CVs are not GSD people. CV people are proud of CV and have no interest in GSDs. GSD people in Czech think that CV sucks as a working dog. It would be akin to GSD people introducing Labrador retriever into the line.
I just do not see this to happen.
Prager Hans
The next point is there were no wolfs available in Czech which could be used for breeding by private citizens. None.
The rest were part of the military breeding program . They were all identifiable by tattoo. Yes to fuel your fire I will say that there were breeding of CV s which were shared with private citizens.But that was CV program and those dogs were in infancy and thus useless as working dogs absolutely not capable of being titled.
The use of CV or F2 or higher descendant of Wolf x GSD mix is possible but not likely. When the CV (CV = Ceskoslovensky vlcak - Czechoslovak wolfdog ) Pedro was used the breed was not stabilized and temperament of the progeny was useless.
To use your Occam's razor then probability is very small that this would happen. Anything is possible but I would say not so. There was no desire to do so. CV were such desire and it fail. The people who do like CVs are not GSD people. CV people are proud of CV and have no interest in GSDs. GSD people in Czech think that CV sucks as a working dog. It would be akin to GSD people introducing Labrador retriever into the line.
I just do not see this to happen.
Prager Hans
by Prager on 04 January 2013 - 20:01
F1 breeding of CV Brita ( Canis lupus lupus) and Kurt
by Prager on 04 January 2013 - 20:01
The Czechoslovakian Vlčák is very playful and temperamental. It learns easily. However, it does not train spontaneously, the behavior of the Czech Vlčák is strictly purposeful - it is necessary to find motivation for training. The most frequent cause of failure is usually the fact that the dog is tired out with long useless repetitions of the same exercise, which results in the loss of motivation. These dogs have admirable senses and are very good at following trails. They are very independent and can cooperate in the pack with a special purposefulness. If required, they can easily shift their activity to the night hours. Sometimes problems can occur during their training when barking is required. Czechoslovakian Vlčáks have a much wider range of means of expressing themselves and barking is unnatural for them; they try to communicate with their masters in other ways (mainly body language but also use quiet noises as in growls, grunts, and whining). Generally, teaching the Czechoslovakian Vlčák stable and reliable performance takes a bit longer than teaching traditional specialized breeds. The Czechoslovakian Vlčák has been successfully employed as a Search And Rescue (SAR) dog in Italy, although, admittedly, handling one is much more work. work.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakian_wolfdog
by guddu on 05 January 2013 - 01:01
Hans:
The points you state are accurate in general, but may not be applicable to particular wolf-gsd mixes (ie stereotyping is not a good idea). Thus the description you post above applies to the current wolf-dog, which is more wolf like, than gsd. What kind of wolf-gsd mix you develop is totally dependent on selection and content of wolf blood. In the early days, as shown in some of the pictures I posted, there were many gsd look alikes, presumably some of them also had good temperament. In later generations, after objections by SV and some gsd people, some breeders wanted to develop the czech wolf dog as a breed, and these dogs resemble more the wolf temperament and phenotype than the gsd.
The biggest weak point against your argument is that the original gsd was bred or mixed to wolf in the early generations (Max.Stephanitz time)..and I believe these foundation dogs were considered worthwhile to breed by Max Stephanitz and also led to good gsd's down the line...That leaves the issue of accuracy of pedigrees in a society/time when records were typed manually and corrected. As somebody questioned earlier, is it a bad idea to rejuvenate the lines with wolf once in a while.
Even the AKC has allowed non-pedigreed dogs (non-gsd) from Africa to breed with AKC dogs to rejuvenate and broaden the gene pool.
Note added:From present dogs, its about 25 generations back to the start of the gsd.
The points you state are accurate in general, but may not be applicable to particular wolf-gsd mixes (ie stereotyping is not a good idea). Thus the description you post above applies to the current wolf-dog, which is more wolf like, than gsd. What kind of wolf-gsd mix you develop is totally dependent on selection and content of wolf blood. In the early days, as shown in some of the pictures I posted, there were many gsd look alikes, presumably some of them also had good temperament. In later generations, after objections by SV and some gsd people, some breeders wanted to develop the czech wolf dog as a breed, and these dogs resemble more the wolf temperament and phenotype than the gsd.
The biggest weak point against your argument is that the original gsd was bred or mixed to wolf in the early generations (Max.Stephanitz time)..and I believe these foundation dogs were considered worthwhile to breed by Max Stephanitz and also led to good gsd's down the line...That leaves the issue of accuracy of pedigrees in a society/time when records were typed manually and corrected. As somebody questioned earlier, is it a bad idea to rejuvenate the lines with wolf once in a while.
Even the AKC has allowed non-pedigreed dogs (non-gsd) from Africa to breed with AKC dogs to rejuvenate and broaden the gene pool.
Note added:From present dogs, its about 25 generations back to the start of the gsd.
by Prager on 05 January 2013 - 10:01
I guess you choose to argue without even reading or considering what I have said.
Well let me recap.
1. Well I did not say that original GSD was mixed with wolf mix but to make my statement more precise I will say that it is assumed so by many but it is not proven fact.
2. I have also said that in Czech there was 0, (ZERO) interest in mixing CV with GSD. CVs temperament is considered inferior to GSD and I am being polite and is an object of gentle jokes by GSD people and the one who like such mix have CVs and do not need to mix it into GSDs. I have said that I have seen only about 10 years ago first CV getting title. No GSD person would want to go backwards in their breeding programs by mixing CVs which were work wise useless by comparison to GSD.
CV people in Czech are looked upon like special needs, red headed cousin by GSD people.
3. I have also said that litters were and are evaluated by breed warden and the litters produced by such a mix would be mix of more like GSDs look alikes and more like wolfs pups look alikes for many generations. Thus to hide such influence of such mix is practically impossible. If that would happen in pre DNA era such line would be stopped by breeders themselves or by breed warden and such breeder who would originated such scheme would be banned. I would venture to say that such infliense would be obvious for at least 5 generations which would produce 100s of pups and many would look like wolfs. That would be hard to hide . No GSD breeder would take such chance for up front failed project.
Mainly for that reason it is not just extremely unlikely but it is practically impossible that it happed.
It seems that you believe that people in Czechoslovakia or DDR during communist era were knuckle dragging, corrupted crooks living on the trees, but I tell you that such mixing during those days would be more likely in USA under AKC ruling before DNA then in Czech or DDR where litters were checked by breed warden. That is since there are no breed wardens checking litters in AKC.
In conclusion I'll say that you are just dreaming extremely unlikely scenarios, Occam's razor and such. But if you make such a ridiculous and injurious statements like you do, then you need a proof. And you have none.
Prager Hans
PS
By the way to the present dog it is more like 30+ generations.
Well let me recap.
1. Well I did not say that original GSD was mixed with wolf mix but to make my statement more precise I will say that it is assumed so by many but it is not proven fact.
2. I have also said that in Czech there was 0, (ZERO) interest in mixing CV with GSD. CVs temperament is considered inferior to GSD and I am being polite and is an object of gentle jokes by GSD people and the one who like such mix have CVs and do not need to mix it into GSDs. I have said that I have seen only about 10 years ago first CV getting title. No GSD person would want to go backwards in their breeding programs by mixing CVs which were work wise useless by comparison to GSD.
CV people in Czech are looked upon like special needs, red headed cousin by GSD people.
3. I have also said that litters were and are evaluated by breed warden and the litters produced by such a mix would be mix of more like GSDs look alikes and more like wolfs pups look alikes for many generations. Thus to hide such influence of such mix is practically impossible. If that would happen in pre DNA era such line would be stopped by breeders themselves or by breed warden and such breeder who would originated such scheme would be banned. I would venture to say that such infliense would be obvious for at least 5 generations which would produce 100s of pups and many would look like wolfs. That would be hard to hide . No GSD breeder would take such chance for up front failed project.
Mainly for that reason it is not just extremely unlikely but it is practically impossible that it happed.
It seems that you believe that people in Czechoslovakia or DDR during communist era were knuckle dragging, corrupted crooks living on the trees, but I tell you that such mixing during those days would be more likely in USA under AKC ruling before DNA then in Czech or DDR where litters were checked by breed warden. That is since there are no breed wardens checking litters in AKC.
In conclusion I'll say that you are just dreaming extremely unlikely scenarios, Occam's razor and such. But if you make such a ridiculous and injurious statements like you do, then you need a proof. And you have none.
Prager Hans
PS
By the way to the present dog it is more like 30+ generations.
by guddu on 05 January 2013 - 13:01
Hans:
I think you are .bringing in words such as knuckle dragging, corrupted crooks etc...which I have not implied or used. What I have said/implied is there was corruption in the communist block, which was more than in the west.
One important argument at this point is item 1 in your response. I have seen on the web posts where evidence was presented from the SV breed book that in the early generations of the gsd (Stephanitz), there was breeding with wolf-mixes (SV#236 Phylax von Eulau; SV#65 Wolfi vom wolfsnest). Infact the early siegers were wolf mixes. Some of this was also posted on your board and the poor bloke got shot down. Perhaps someone who knows more about GSD pedigrees can confirm or deny the veracity of this statement. If true, it means that such an approach is viable and can give rise to good dogs by appropriate selection. See link: http://www.alpinek9forums.com/is-there-in-blood-of-czech-gsd-blood-from-carpathian-wolf-t1260-20.html
The second argument you keep repeating is that the mixed breeding would be detected by the warden for upto 5 generations. This is also a weak argument. I think more like 3-4 generations. At 3 gen the wolf content would be 12.5%, 4 generation would be 6.25%, and at 5 gen about 3.125 %. Breeding wolf hybrids happened in large numbers and many participated, and a lot of F4 generation wolf-gsd's were produced (note: only the first mating was to a she wolf) legally. Based on your own argument, at this time the F4 pups would physically be indistinguishable from gsd pups (see nice reverse masked dogs and Pedro above). Note that all of these pups were still being produced in the wolf-gsd programme without interference by the breed warden. It would be very easy to use an F4 dog (6.25 % DNA) for breeding and claim that a pedigreed stud that resembled it performed the breeding. the breeder could look at the pups and decide if he wanted the pups registered by the breed warden. Pl. also note that 6.25 % DNA content corresponds to a 5-5 line breeding that we desire many times in gsd's.
The third argument that you keep making is about poor temperament of the CsV. This statement needs to be parsed some more. CsV's may have had poor temperament in aggregate, but not at the individual level (otherwise the programme would not have continued for 35 years). What this means is what gsd breeders observe every day. In a litters of gsd's, its entirely possible that out of 8 pups, one has poor temperament. In the CsV-mix it might have been reverse, ie out of 8 pups, perhaps only 1-2 had good temperament. But by proper selection, in 2-4 generations good dogs would be obtained. This point needs to be put in proper perspective. Even today we all recognize on PDB that many SL and WL dogs have temperament issues...so the problem may not be unique to CsV.
The argument can be settled today not by doing DNA analysis, but by mitochondrial DNA analysis.
P.S. Its is 25 gen to Horand v Grafrath SV1, atleast for my dog who is less than 1 year old. Yes there were dogs before Horand, but they were not gsd's. can you post a link with a 30+gen origin that you claim.
I think you are .bringing in words such as knuckle dragging, corrupted crooks etc...which I have not implied or used. What I have said/implied is there was corruption in the communist block, which was more than in the west.
One important argument at this point is item 1 in your response. I have seen on the web posts where evidence was presented from the SV breed book that in the early generations of the gsd (Stephanitz), there was breeding with wolf-mixes (SV#236 Phylax von Eulau; SV#65 Wolfi vom wolfsnest). Infact the early siegers were wolf mixes. Some of this was also posted on your board and the poor bloke got shot down. Perhaps someone who knows more about GSD pedigrees can confirm or deny the veracity of this statement. If true, it means that such an approach is viable and can give rise to good dogs by appropriate selection. See link: http://www.alpinek9forums.com/is-there-in-blood-of-czech-gsd-blood-from-carpathian-wolf-t1260-20.html
The second argument you keep repeating is that the mixed breeding would be detected by the warden for upto 5 generations. This is also a weak argument. I think more like 3-4 generations. At 3 gen the wolf content would be 12.5%, 4 generation would be 6.25%, and at 5 gen about 3.125 %. Breeding wolf hybrids happened in large numbers and many participated, and a lot of F4 generation wolf-gsd's were produced (note: only the first mating was to a she wolf) legally. Based on your own argument, at this time the F4 pups would physically be indistinguishable from gsd pups (see nice reverse masked dogs and Pedro above). Note that all of these pups were still being produced in the wolf-gsd programme without interference by the breed warden. It would be very easy to use an F4 dog (6.25 % DNA) for breeding and claim that a pedigreed stud that resembled it performed the breeding. the breeder could look at the pups and decide if he wanted the pups registered by the breed warden. Pl. also note that 6.25 % DNA content corresponds to a 5-5 line breeding that we desire many times in gsd's.
The third argument that you keep making is about poor temperament of the CsV. This statement needs to be parsed some more. CsV's may have had poor temperament in aggregate, but not at the individual level (otherwise the programme would not have continued for 35 years). What this means is what gsd breeders observe every day. In a litters of gsd's, its entirely possible that out of 8 pups, one has poor temperament. In the CsV-mix it might have been reverse, ie out of 8 pups, perhaps only 1-2 had good temperament. But by proper selection, in 2-4 generations good dogs would be obtained. This point needs to be put in proper perspective. Even today we all recognize on PDB that many SL and WL dogs have temperament issues...so the problem may not be unique to CsV.
The argument can be settled today not by doing DNA analysis, but by mitochondrial DNA analysis.
P.S. Its is 25 gen to Horand v Grafrath SV1, atleast for my dog who is less than 1 year old. Yes there were dogs before Horand, but they were not gsd's. can you post a link with a 30+gen origin that you claim.
by aaykay on 05 January 2013 - 14:01
Guddu, I think you have made your point. Several times already ! Right from your armchair at home. 
And you are continuing to make specious proof-less arguments made on assumptions, about a place/location/dogs that you have little to no awareness of, unless I am misreading things and you have some kind of first-hand knowledge.
Bottomline, as Prager said, when someone decides to mix a hybrid with a pure-bred GSD (indulging in all kinds of risks to swing such a deal), they have some kind of purpose in mind. Something really worthwhile in the resultant progeny, that is totally missing in the pool of the GSDs that are available. Seems like in this particular situation, it is a retrograde step to introduce wolf-hybrid genetic material into the GSD genepool, than an improvement. So even on the face of it, making assertions that such mixing "probably" has occurred, makes little to no sense, other than just throwing some mud out there, hoping that some will stick.
And you are continuing to make specious proof-less arguments made on assumptions, about a place/location/dogs that you have little to no awareness of, unless I am misreading things and you have some kind of first-hand knowledge.Bottomline, as Prager said, when someone decides to mix a hybrid with a pure-bred GSD (indulging in all kinds of risks to swing such a deal), they have some kind of purpose in mind. Something really worthwhile in the resultant progeny, that is totally missing in the pool of the GSDs that are available. Seems like in this particular situation, it is a retrograde step to introduce wolf-hybrid genetic material into the GSD genepool, than an improvement. So even on the face of it, making assertions that such mixing "probably" has occurred, makes little to no sense, other than just throwing some mud out there, hoping that some will stick.
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