Why can North American GSD breeders never seem to breed world class dogs?? - Page 4

It comes down to your definition of the German Shepherd and what a "Working Dog" (Definition from the German standard)  is supposed to be if the height of your achievement is prancing around a ring with a dead expression on your face and doing all the bite work in Prey and backing up with no presence from the helpers or real pressure then sure I could understand why the OP asked such a dullard question. Since the breed is supposed to be a Working Breed by Stephinitz request a better question would be why are the German Shepherd dogs bred to Herd,Protect, and a all around service dog has been falling by the way side to other breeds?. Why has any thing that gives us a glimpse of a GSD,s true spirit and working tenacity been taken out of the test, Why has the bar been consistently lowered to offer weaker dogs to obtain a "Working Title" Why do Conformation tests of attack out of the blind and long bites all move away from the dog instead of thru them (or thru the handler as in the attack out of the blind), Why are guns shots so soft and muzzled that they are more inline with the fart of a virgin allowed to be used in the test, Why during time after time are there no stick hits in many of the shows( they should be heard as much as seen) ?. These are really good questions to ask.

 

This is a viewpoint of an outsider, in Europe especially in Germany breeders cooperate with each other, I mean you can easily see two ,three or even four breeders joining effort and sharing dogs, experience, training etc etc, in the US you see breeders fighting each other or talking against each other. Germans support the owner of a super dog with the progeny they have from that dog by training, raising and so on and support the dog with its progeny in the shows and contests. A bigger breeder supports smaller breeders and gets paid back with progeny participation, I don't see that in the US.

Ibrahim

Maybe because europe in general has better understanding of breeding/training workingdogs, combined with more breeders who really follow up on what they produce due to more people doing sports/work and various healthtests on their dogs, the small size of many european countries and the many workingclubs and such makes all this easier I suppose.

Bob, why do you start blaming the showlines here?
Some people ask for "true" working dogs like Slam does,
some people ask for "true" working dogs like you do,
some people ask for "true" working dogs like I do,
some people ask for "true" working dogs like the German show people do....
It´s his or their or your or my choice - but at least all of us DO TRAIN.

I´m not going to start a debate about the quality of training and titling here, a SchH trial or a breedsurvey is not the end of all, it´s a beginning.
As long as people don´t start to raise, train, and title their own breeding stock, they´ll know nothing about their own dogs advantages and disadvantages.
There is something we call "breeder blindness" - the breeder is not able to see the faults in his own dogs - and in this case some competition works wonder...

People here are saying, not enough clubs, not enough dedication to training, its the AKC, its the USCA, its the WDA, etc, etc, etc.  But Ibrahim pin pointed the exact same problem I was talking about in my earlier post in the thread, Ibrahim just linked his example to something he has experienced within the dog breeding world.  Its the culture of the USA, with the "trade secrets" mindset.  Its all about a lack of cooperation and a total lack of mentoring or apprenticeship.  These things can't be fixed in the USA, its culturally ingrained.  Therefore American dog breeding standards and the resulting dogs will always be sub-par  and don't stand a chance against whats being done in Europe. 

Essentially in the USA new breeders have to reinvent the wheel every decade or less because some "old codger" doesn't want to teach anybody anything about breeding, for a multitude of xenophobic reasons (fear of competition, pure selfishness, arrogance, etc).  So, since everything is a "family" or "trade Secret", I'd just expect "the wheel" to be continually reinvented erroneously rather than improved, over and over and over again.  THIS is the problem, nothing else, and no amount of "pet theories" on genetics, training regimens or policy changes will fix it.  We have a dysfunctional cultural disconnect that is not compatible with responsible and successful dog breeding, in any sport venue or specific dog breed.

@Momosgarage.....lets reverse that....lol....do you know how many people that have been in the breed for ten minutes, that because of their titled bad certified dog, don't WANT to be mentored? Or how many people that breed in America that have very limited knowledge of what to breed for other than what they can see?

The "Better from Europe" is just a mind set created  by a seller to impress a buyer! Go ahead and drink the kool-aid.

 

Susie:

                Thats the problem in a nut shell "Choice" What was the GSD created for? to Work, am I wrong ?. To be judged  a working dog to breed they created a test, As time passed dogs were bred that could not pass the test so instead of breeding stronger mental, physical dogs they lowered the test requirements am I wrong?  All under the watchful eye of the founding breed state am I wrong? Now the definition of "Work" is nothing but "sport".    

I think in all breeds, the majority of the dogs with the most potential are living as pets where that potential will never be realized.

I agree with Bob - you have to buy European to get a good GSD is a marketing ploy and counterproductive to the efforts of the Amercan breeders to place their well bred dogs with owners who will take them as far as they can go. Is it any wonder that we don't see more Am bred dogs on the podium when they are not given the opportunity to excel. After all these years it's hard to believe that SOME US breeders aren't producing "world class" dogs and that experienced GSD people can't find a well bred dog with potential right here in the USA.

And what compounds this is our organizations them self. Your organizations of choice (mine is UScA) does a poor job of being instrumental in the recognition of the H.O.T.B. Dogs look at the top sport competitors how many raise and compete with there own dog? If the focus was on Breeding and Shoiwing our own dogs with a proper test the question would never be asked.