Why can North American GSD breeders never seem to breed world class dogs?? - Page 42

Joanro; great examples when you site ''sea bisket'' and the wolf. The wolf shaped by darwinism, the race horse by man's interpretation of darwism, the need to win for the love of money. No money from Sea B and off to the dog food company. A peer review is needed in all production. Make a poor widget= no sales. Bad build on a wolf? = no prodigeny. American Sheppard? = A whole campaign to convince the buying population it is not a bad widget. I am not concerned about the few who know what they are doing who refuse to conform, it is the next tier of know-it-alls which upset me and do not get me started with what comes next after the second tier. The 3rd tier are parasites which prosper from the cracks in the breed mandates for peer review.. Work and conformation should never be split in the GSD.

@Susie, ok, but I'm with the standard :-)

duke ,
I think you may be under the impression that I believe all titled dogs
should be bred, that's not the case at all. As far as why Americans
can't seem to produce 'World Class Dogs', (not quite sure what that means really?),
I think the vast majority of 'breeders' in our country do nothing with their dogs other
than to produce puppies. If they actually got out there and worked those dogs before
breeding them, they might make a more educated choice in selecting a breeding 
partner for their dog. But, as it's been pointed out, that is not what 'sells', what will
sell those puppies is to breed to the most popular dog. This is why we will continue 
to send our money to EU to purchase pups for as long as we are in the breed. There
is a long established track record of production in terms of both health and working 
ability from the kennels we purchase from. Generations of dogs are titled, surveyed etc.
We can verify health checks, trial results etc. We can also ask around to the various
Landesgruppes to get feedback on just how the sire/dam are etc. Susie sums it up quite
well in her comments about finding out just what makes your dog tick when you train it.
We have seen plenty of dogs over the years fall apart just because they trialled on a new 
field, road trip stressed them out etc etc. If we just relied on the dog jumping on picnic 
tables in a back yard, we'd never know how those nerves hold up in the rest of the world
now would we? Is the system perfect? Absolutely not. But, I would wonder why all of those
American 'breeders' that seem to think it's so easy and means nothing would not show the 
rest of us just how easy it is and get out and make IPO3 on all their dogs, afterall, it's easy
isn't it? I mean come on, it just takes a 'good trainer' to get a dog through right?
The beauty about our country is, we have many freedoms, and while some choose to skip
even the most basic of pre-breeding testing, that's their right. Just as it's our right to simply
continue to purchase from breeders who actually do get out and do something with their dogs
before breeding   This country has far too many people that hardly know how to put a fur saver
on breeding dogs, in fact, one prominant poster here that has produced several litters from an import bitch
actually thought the bright orange tab on a fur saver was some sort of 'charm' or pendant 
Now I ask you, is that the person you want to rely on to evaluate working ability etc? Soundness of 
temperment and nerve come to light when the dog is put under stress, how do you know what the 
dog is until you stress it? Ideally a dog won't be stressed in it's own back yard  

Sure, there are exceptions to everything, I'll choose recorded official fact (trial results etc) to aid in the 
selection of our next pup, it's worked for us all these years. I wonder if those so adamant that titles 
mean nothing etc would be so quick to shell out their $$ for a pup from untitled parents? What do 
you think duke, joanro, gustav etc? Would you all send 2K+ over to a breeder in EU to import a pup from
untitled parents? I somehow doubt it. But hey, the pups would be coming from parents who had titled parents 
 

I don't know how anybody can say titling any dog is easy...I worked my butt off training and titling the dogs that I titled. It took many, many miles of driving, getting up before daylight, rain or shine, day after day, for many weeks, which turned into many months,during training and titling; going to different places to track and work obedience, and protection. Not to mention the thousands of dollars paid, hiring three different helpers to come to my field to work my dogs ( by the way, I was training in all three phases of schH, seven dogs concurrently, not just the three I put the schH titles on.) But I know better than to work a dog at one location and assume the dog will perform at every location. That's why my dogs were able to get BHs and titles at different clubs in three different states. But if the dogs weren't worth a shit, I would not have put the time, money and effort into working them.
As for sending two thousand dollars overseas for a puppy from untitled parents; I only paid that much for one puppy, and that was here in the states. The puppies I did buy from overseas, I had no clue what the titles meant, nor did i care, i just liked what I saw of the parents. But that's just me.

Edited to add:  "...it just takes a'' good trainer ' to get a dog through right?"  
I just wanted to comment that my dogs didn't " just get through",  all three dogs qualified to go to the next level ( I'm not bragging on their scores) but they more than just got through.  All three dogs I trained to SchH III level  before I even put BHs on them.  My female is now nine years old and I plan to put her three on her this year and will probably put the two on the Czech male as well.  Unfortunately the GSL dog I had to euthanize when he was only eight years old (he was the 2,000 + American purchased puppy).  
That'll do!
 

LOL, Susie, I just told Joanro the same thing - I'll never again question her ability to train any animal. Those who can do......

workingdogz, it is a difficult topic and explanations on internet can be read many ways, im not saying that people should not work their dogs  try to train and title them, Im also training and titling my dogs, but Im not afraid to use untitled dog if it has the right pedigree, healthresults and qualities to make a good combination

I just feel that a good breeder needs to look past the titles and fame to see if the dog is the right match for his female and go from there

you wrote ; I think the vast majority of 'breeders' in our country do nothing with their dogs other
than to produce puppies. If they actually got out there and worked those dogs before
breeding them, they might make a more educated choice in selecting a breeding
partner for their dog.

Do you really think these people would make different breedingchoices or produce better pups if they trained or payed someone to train and title their dogs, this is actually what is happening with a big part of the other breeders , they buy titled stock or send their dogs to be titled, and do you really think that makes them better breeders or producing better stock than the ones that dont have the money to do so

Im all for working with your dogs, but I think the titling of today is way past a real test of breedworthiness , if breeding titled stock was a guarantee all german breeders would produce worldclass stock, and all KNPV breeders would produce shit

my point is, and that is the question of O.P.    using titled stock doesnot make one a better breeder, but I agree that anyone should healttest and work their GSD before breeding and I think many breeders who breed titled stock dont work their dogs at all, but keep/use them as sellingtools and trofees till the next hottie is purchased

this makes the matter more complicated but I think I should look for what a breeder produced before as in health and qualities of dogs and how much they breed to decide were to get my next puppy and not run blind on just titled stock

second point in breeding which is very important in breeding is that breedingpartners should match, the male must be able to bring that what you want to improve on your female, how much chance do you think there is that the last big winner or the titled male you just purchased is the right male with the right qualities for all your breedingfemales, I would say one in a million
breeding starts with owning a above normal quality female and mating them to the male who can bring what you want to improve on her, do you really think all titled females are above normal quality ??

but again, im not so much promoting breeding untitled stock, but looking past the titles when making breedingchoices

in my previous breed I bred worldchampions, topwinners and topproducingdogs and NEVER used the famous and flavour of the day studs, I ve been called crazy for using unknown studs, and after the offspring came out in the open and won big, the same breeders who called me crazy ran to breed that dog  only to produce nothing, simply because that male wasnot the right mach for their females,







 

@ Workingsdogz.....since you asked me.....if the breeders of the last 5 pups I have bought pups from told me that the pup was what I wanted....I would pay 2000 dollars for pup from untitled parents. I would buy a pup from Duke based on his assurances, and Joan, based on her assurances, and the five breeders that I have gotten my last 5 pups from, and probably twenty other breeders that if they say this litter will produce what I want, I'd do it. I don't know if that answers your question or not but you asked me specifically. I know that answer may not sit well with some, but that's okay with me. I've always maintained that I trust breeders over titles or certs....but I am a nonconformist to today's ways.....I know that....but there are many ways to do things well. And I will certainly put the dogs in my yard up against my critics any day of the week.

Gustav, maybe one of these days you will post something I disagree with. (maybe).                                                                                                        I not only would, but have and had to wait a long time to get it. This was a repeat breeding of 2 untitled dogs, not untrained by any means but untitled. I bought the dog after not only researching the dogs but getting to know the breeder. Since he is a top trainer, breeder, with other titled dogs to select from. I chose this dog because this mating has produced the type dogs that are compatible with the type dogs I desire.  
Gustav I could say the same thing about you.  I would value your credibility over a trial judge I don't know.

Hank

right back to being off the subject. Why can American parents not breed the next generation of world class fussball players [ soccer]? It is not important enough even though soccer is the # one sport in the world. Do we have inferior athletes? Is there some secret we miss out on for the world arena? I guess that superior Specimens of soccer players, born in the USA is not important enough.

Joanro, Gustav, duke etc
I hope you understand what I was getting at. If we didn't have a system to use as a 
baseline for dogs, one that has an official record of health testing and working titles, 
I doubt like heck you all would be just taking everyone for their word that their dogs
could indeed 'work'  I am pretty sure the lot of you are much smarter than that 
I also wasn't referencing 'breeders' you 'know', I learning more towards you actually
purchasing a dog from someone you didn't know, perhaps from an ad here even. 
Would you take a stranger at their word their dogs could do the work? And that they
have great hips/elbows etc? Would you rely on what kind of PR campaign the same
'breeder' would run on various discussion boards about how superior their dogs are?
Or would you want to see some sort of proof? Hope that clarified things. Although 
I did in fact single you out, I was referencing a more broad spectrum of breeders to
purchase from, not someone you know or have already purchased from. 

And yes Joanro, I see you went back and edited your post to include how well your
dogs placed that you trained and titled, very impressive, now, doesn't it make sense 
that those that do work and title their dogs get a little tired of the expert 'breeders' that 
can't hardly figure out how to put a fursaver on correctly will turn around and tell everyone
that their untitled/untested dogs 'could do top sport' etc etc? Each and every one of you that
I singled out has walked the walk, it is not as easy as people would like to make it seem.
Sure, with a well bred dog that has the right genetics, it will 'seem' easy, but you all know
damn well it's not 'great training' that gets the job done. It needs to be there in the dog to 
start with. Now, back to titles, if there is no record of any actual testing done, how are we 
to go back 5 years from now and verify that grandsire granddam etc had had anything done at all?
I'm merely stating how important it is to keep things documented officially so that later down
the road we know for sure Dog #11 was in fact 'a normal' etc etc.  There is no concrete formula
for producing good dogs, everyone has their preference, but if we have no standard to start with, 
the variables (no testing, no titles, no breed survey etc) sure do cloud things. Yes the system is
flawed, however I am only concerning myself with breeders who do it the right way, and their dogs
do in fact have working ability, not the quickie fly by night stuff.

Happy Memorial Day everyone!