Why can North American GSD breeders never seem to breed world class dogs?? - Page 43

@workingsdogz, I understand what you are saying, but I think you misunderstand my point. I am not against titling and health checks whatsoever! I take issue with the declarations that the only way to produce good dogs is through ONLY breeding from titled parents. I think that it is GOOD that there are titled breeders that are producing dogs. Sometimes the PERSPECTIVE that something is looked at affects validity. From a routine buyers POV the titles may be necessary to feel comfortable with there purchase. ( I word it that way because even with these things people are always getting burned with temperament and health issues from pups from titled parents ), but from a breeders perspective, the knowledge of the lines, dogs, and breed, in conjunction with understanding how a GS works through first hand experience is the recipe for a breeder to produce top dogs. The American show line breeders didn't go into the toilet because of lack of titles....the ASL dogs went into the toilet because the breeding practices that they followed to create a new structure is incompatible with maintaining strong utility working traits. The ASL breeder also removed themselves from the genetics that had the strength of traits to bring back any sense of restoration of these traits as they have boycotted the genes of the European dogs for past 40 years. And lastly, the ASL breeders in general, as with their handlers, or JUDGES, have no hands on knowledge of almost any real training, so they have no point of reference anymore on utility breeding. Sure there are 5,6 that are now trying to mix, but there are hundreds still doing what I describe above. My point is if you gave all these people titled dogs to start out with, but they maintained their breeding practices they will run it back down. It's just like posters on the forum always weighing in on subjects that they have 5 minutes of knowledge about little practical experience. The really knowledgable people can tell from their posts they don't know what they are talking about from experience!
you can regulate standards, but you can't regulate quality....and ultimately since breeders can take minimum standards and with the purpose of the breeding, actually lower the net effect of the standards.....then I think we have to acknowledge that just like there are titled breeders producing less than stellar dogs, there are breeders that use untitled dogs that are producing above average dogs. In the end it's the quality of the breeder, that will determine the quality of the stock regardless of titles or not. That's why countries like Sweden that don't mandate SV policies have a long history of producing very nice dogs in general. But this is just my opinion.

hey who disliked  me on Soccer players? it is a great analogy. Americans do not care about fussball and place a small effort into the production of players and sport. Now make it worth more TV money and look out. Prioritys are not in place.

I would be very upset with myself if I raised 5 or 10 dogs without the success I deemed worth my time and effort. If I raise a number of dogs without reaching my goals I would redouble my effort to understand; 1] the process of picking my next specimen. 2] the environment I raised this pup in. 3] my goals in general.      this  is why i quit soccer

well, fwiw student, I thought the soccer analogy was good. It may be the most popular sport in the world but really not that popular in the U.S. once past the kiddie level. The U.S. has some of the greatest athletes in the world, but the truly gifted ones gravitate to the sports with a payoff, baseball, football, basketball etc.

@Workingdogz, there is a flood of comments and analogies coming to mind while reading your last post...
I'll try with one analogy, and try not to be boring .
All these dogs I used in my "act" were Siberian husky crosses. The biggest one, Stetson, was out of a half wolf bitch. His sire was the same as the two lead dogs, Buck and Stampede, and Duster( the larger of the two 'white' dogs). Then there is Boomer, right hand Wheel dog, behind me in the picture where I'm hooking Duster to the tug line. Now, Boomer was out of the same half wolf bitch as Stetson, and his sire was a littermate to Stampede and Duster. There was no history of any of these dogs ever having been trained to work in a team or harness or to perform behaviors such as jumping rope with person; or jumping on a galloping pony's back. They. Were pets.
Here's were genetics play a role in what a dog can or cannot do. Stetson and Boomer, both 1/4 wolf,. both dogs took to working in harness like a duck to water. Stetson was a sponge when it came to learning knew behaviors. Boomer drew a blank and saw no point in any of what to him must have seemed non-sense. But he worked as a leader and just as well in wheel position..
Stetson was endearing to watch him perform, he took tremendous joy in it, just as the other 'boy's' did. He was fine in the arena, crowds didn't bother him. But one day at the huge rodeo in Attica, NY, during a performance, I caught him literally STALKING a kid standing against the fence (probably  seventy five feet away). He looked for all intents and purposes like a predator fixing to launch on lunch. I called him to me and broke the trance he was in. But needless to say, that was the last time he got to go on the road with me.
I replaced him with Dally, who was too small to work at wheel, so Duster moved back next to Boomer, and Dally next to Maverick in the middle of the team.. Boomer was not a problem as I never unhooked him from the gang line while the other dogs were performing.
But with no history of working sled dogs in these dog's pedigrees, they all took to the harness like a duck to water; the race memory or what ever you want to call it was still under the surface......as was Stetson's heritage to hunt baby critters (regardless of species).

The point I'm trying to make is German Shepherds as  a  breed must have somewhere in them the capacity to work the way the breed was designed to work whether they have been titled or not.  Even generations of no titles should not make extinct what  the breed was developed to do.  HOWEVER, selecting dogs deliberately to not have the temperament and structure of a German Shepherd will eliminate them from functioning as a German Shepherd should.  Seeing the dogs for yourself, whether they have been titled or not, is to me a better gauge than counting titles in a pedigree.  JMO

 

On the soccer analogy for the states: Our talented soccer player all leave and go to south america, because the USA does not put in effort here for soccer teams of the caliber you are refering to instead of focussing on the sports they already elaborate. We do have awesome players, but there are less in numbers than other countries, because of the amount of people that eat, live, and breathe playing it on the fields and streets here versus the other countries. Too many kids here would rather be in front of a video game than having none of that and out running behind a ball for all of their entertainment. Take the same child to a country as an infant and let them be raised in the different culture and see what you get.

Nice post Gustav.  I still think the focus is wrong for the topic; that the problem shouldn't be centralized on breeding, but instead on handling, training clubs, and the overall growth of the competition venues.  Breeders could quickly overstock the country with "world class" dogs if the demand were legitimately present with capable talent that possessed dedicated interest in AMERICAN breeding.  Anyone with competitive spirit and a drop of sense will put careful consideration to whom they purchase their next prospect from.  It's not like the first average low-standard breeder they stumble upon is going to capture their interest.  There is a selection process for breeders, yes, but there also exists a process of SELECTION from buyers.

" ...a process of SELECTION from buyers."
That's the point I was trying to make in my lengthy post above.

I agree Darryl!

some pretty bullet proof comments from some very capable and proven people. but rules, requirements, proof, titles (whatever one wants to call it) were never put into place for the few who have the experience and desire to do things the right way regardless. they are there for the masses as a guide to hopefully keep the breed on somewhat of a positive track.

I have yet to see a post from anyone who did not start out with dogs from some system that required dogs meet a minimum standard to be successful in that system. the fact that a few have reached a level of recognizing and refusing to compromise on what a GSD should be can in no way keep the whole breed going in a positive direction. I doubt the SV instituted the h/e certs because of the few who would do it anyway. believe it or not, there are people in the Am. dogs that try and do things right. Helen Gleason has been mentioned, Fred Lanting is another. But as well known and successful as they have been, the overall condition of the Am. dog as a breed is not considered favorably by world standards.

jmo,
Rik