Why can North American GSD breeders never seem to breed world class dogs?? - Page 44

Rick, per the Am breed, again it's buyer selection AND, what it takes to win in the ring. That to me is the major downfall of the Amer. dogs....the selection criteria is "cattywhompus". But for that matter, the same can be said for the ones across the pond, which have their own unique problems.
Please do not think that I don't believe testing and titles are valuable, but they need to be taken into perspective..... Some are earned, others are pretend 'training'....take the routine out of the order or to an unfamiliar location, and some dogs will be dumbfounded.

I don't believe that at all  joan, anymore than I think titles/breed surveys are the end all be all. your dogs and deeds speak for themselves. but I do believe that folks like you are the exception, not the rule and certainly not sufficient numbers to keep things on an even keel.

You are absolutely correct in that it is the buyer selection that drives the bus. When I showed Am. dogs, I only had to select for side gait. anything past that was my choice and I got good side gait, but made some pretty shitty choices as far as the good of the breed. But I wasn't alone by any means. We all draw from our individual experience and background (at least the ones who have done something) and my experience of what happens when everyone does only what they think best is not very pretty.

again, it's just my opinion,

Rik

Agree, @ Rik

I'd be willing to bet that if we swapped all the workinglines in the U.S. for all the workinglines in Germany, the greatest difference you'd see would NOT be in the dogs.  It would be in the dedication to competitive dog sports.

daryl, I also believe that if every GSD, trainer, breeder, club etc.in the U.S. were located in Montana (approx. the size of the country of Germany) we would see a much higher level of dog overall, just from the proximity of good dogs.

we'd probably all be very cold though.

jmo,
Rik

True, on both accounts, ha ha.

Hey Rik, 
are Fred and Helen the exception, in the American SL experience?, are GSL breeders like Bullinger, Fuller, and Tyson the exception for GSL dogs with consistent high working aptitude?( btw, I think the others in that arena have titles and certs but most fall short of the aforementioned when it comes to this aspect), my only point is that the exceptions are the only ones I would get a dog from in their world....so something about the system they live in is not working overall in terms of producing top utility dogs....which is what a world class dog should be. The only common denominator in all the aforementioned breeders are the knowledge and integrity of the breeders. Without that its a crapshoot with or without titles. IMO 
But, I do think that 40 years ago, a SCH title was a very good indication of good working quality, because MOST of the dogs I saw with titles then were sound and solid.....I can't say that today.....the times have changed though the mentalities in many remain the same.

agree Gustav. I remember a conversation with a LE K9 handler, probably 30+ years ago, before I had GSD. the part I recall is that a sch. title meant something then, it's not even a consideration now.

by exception, I do mean in the world I was involved in only. As sad as the "temperament test" might be at an AKC show, I always thought Helen did what she could within the rules. Fred was pretty much black balled for his out spoken stance on hips and character.

devil's advocate time ; The very first time I saw a Sch titled dog in the States was in 1978. A breeder brought a SCHh2 female to my mentor's training to see her work. The very pretty dog would not bite or even engage in aggresive behavior. My mentor thought this was true of ALL Schutzhund titled dogs. My mentor widen his involvement a few years later and no longer made blanket statements against titled dogs. I try to keep this scenerio in mind when giving opinions based on a limited subjects. He opened the GSD WORLD to me and I thank him for the direction and insight. WORLD CLASS is a marketing term to take advantage of the newbees.

World class dog: I will sum it up succinctly with a quote some one made about one of my females ; " That's a dog you could take to the moon, and she'd still work!"

Anyone who's worked dogs doesn't need to have the meaning explained to them.
To me, the label "world class" should apply to the trainer/handler since that's what it takes for any dog, (no matter what the qualities and potential in the dog) to achieve top level.