Why can North American GSD breeders never seem to breed world class dogs?? - Page 45

food for thought; It is very lonely on the trial field without a dog! If a trainer has the reputation as being top notch, or world class, what type of dog do you think they keep? If they only have medium or less type dogs, the dogs will not hold up to many trials. A lesser specimen might do well one or 2 times but the stress of trials, training, and travel will make the true essences of the dog apparent. The best race car drivers build the best auto for their sport, the best artist will use the best raw materials, Why assume the best trainer keeps inferior animals for sport? I can wow most outside observers of my dogs. A good judge is far more difficult to wow even tougher over a few year period with the same dog.

I don't see where anyone is assuming that a top notch trainer would keep inferior dogs to compete with. But it doesn't matter how great a dog is, without the high caliber trainer/ handler, they won't get far in sport. A great dog is not going to make it to the top in competition with an inferior handler/trainer either. Doesn't mean the the dog is of less quality, just means it won't attain top level in sport. So, is the same dog still "world class", with or without that top level, high caliber trainer/handler?

Agree wholly, and you said that one better than I had!

as long as you think a topdog for points is also a top dog for breeding, and even the best match for any female who has a title you are on the right way

Duke, that's not what I'm saying, and it's not what I think. I think a top dog for breeding, if working ability is the goal, then the comment; "that dog could go to the moon and still work". That sums it up for me. ( in addition, of course, the dog must have correct structure for utility).
By ..."still work." , that is not implying the dog is 'working' in sport.

I thought the discussion was geared toward "world class" performers, rather than producers.  I think if the term "world class" is being used regarding a producer, quite often it is also a "world class" performer.  Sure, there's occasionally a "black horse" that produces a few or more world class performance animals (in the hands of the right handler), but some come out of less accomplished parents (again, in the hands of the right handler).  And, since females on the whole, rarely participate in world events, of course they are often "not" world class themselves, though they may produce so.

joan it was not directed at you but GSD student,
@ Daryll  to get topperformers you need topproducers, but topperformers are not allways topproducers LOL

@ Duke, gottcha.

absolute agreement that top points do not equal top producers. But to assume that a point dog is not a producer because he or she is owned by a top trainer is just foolish also. The SV system is as good as it gets [ on paper] for production of working dogs. People foul it up.

If the concern is mandatory titles for improve the whole breed, then obviously there are no such system in place( at least for civilian breeders) anywhere that is good enough for this, hence why a "serious" workingdog breeder doesn´t breed dogs based on if they have the german breedsurvey or not, unless they have to of course. People who are into working GSDs are going to choose dogs that fit their goals, regardless if the dog has the minimum mandatory titles or is a "worldclass" SCH-dog. Some seems to argue that the absolute worst dogs are limited with the SV system, maybe they are but still the demands are too low for be of any intresst for a workingdog breeder to select dogs upon,  even many of the dogs that have competed on higher levels are not intressting for breeding by different reasons.

Also, you can have two people that have trained and competed a lot but still has different meanings what a dog should look and act like, some may be more intressted to breed dogs that could be worldclass in SCH, others may be more inressted in dogs that are more wellrounded servicedogs for police etc, and therefore are less intressted to breed dogs just because they can deliver 100 points in protection and obedience according to the rules of the sport. So just because someone is a worldchampion in SCH it doesn´t mean his type of dogs and ideal is better than a person who has a background mainly in servicework or other sports than SCH.