what so good about a calm full grip?? - Page 2

Zdog, you are the exception and hats off to you. It gets sickening watching one club 'helper' after another whacking the shit out of every dogs' front legs, that dares touch them with their front feet....a sin of all sins judging the intensity by which they focus on keeping the dogs' feet from touching the 'helper'.
Your post is good to see that a dog in a trial can actually do more than just hang on to score well. However, that video wasn't at a trial in the States. Maybe it's an American phenomenon.

well my dog will have her feet on someone :)  I'm just getting into a trial season where I actually have a dog in it again for the first time in about 3 years.  I've never had a judge say anything when doing helper work about a dog using it's feet, good or bad in the past few years that I can remember.  But yes, I have seen my share of helpers whacking the feet off them with a stick and I felt like smacking them with it instead :)

so when in the real world does a calm full grip have a survival advantage in a ppd role over a slashing, ripping multiple bite??

a dog that does slashing, ripping multiple bites is a much higher insurance liability, plus very very bad PR....

Accidental bites do occur among trained dogs, they may target the wrong person (judge, person standing in the wrong place, it's own handler, a child, or if it's a LEO K9 they may erroneously focus on another officer in the heat of the moment and bite them instead)    So...which kind of bites would you prefer to accidentally receive?  one solid hard bite or multiple ripping slashes all over your body?   Both will hurt badly, but one will require a lot more clean-up, surgery and leave a lot more scars...and has the potential to do much more serious disabling or fatal injury.  
If PPD or LEO K9 dogs were jack-the-ripper kind, they would be looked at much much less favorably by dog lovers, the public, government and insurance companies.  I'm pretty sure if this is how our bite-trained dogs did their bitework that we would probably no longer be allowed to own or train dogs for protection.  

Like the other posters said, a calm, controlled solid bite also has a direct correlation to the overall mental stability of a dog too.  

and...there are places still where a good gripping dog is still very much valued by people with livestock.  
 

My take on the full, calm bite is this. Firstly, it was to ensure the sheep's skin wasn't torn and ripped. They didn't want the sheep mangled as they still had a job to do and couldn't very well do that with a chunk taken out of their hind end!

Secondly, a full calm bite is a sign of a stable dog, whereas a dog biting hectically all over is a sign of an unstable dog.

This pretty much relates to the first point. LEO's are more likely to win a lawsuit with a dog that bit once, full and calm, rather than from a dog that bit frontally, ripping and shredding as they fillet the suspects limbs wide open.

"so when in the real world does a calm full grip have a survival advantage in a ppd role over a slashing, ripping multiple bite??"
When you still have your house, job, and enough money left from the lawsuit to survive would be my assumption!

best grip i ever felt of a dog myself was by tabou des deux pottois, extremly hard,calm and full, and by extremly hard i mean belgium ringsuit whit horse bandages underneath even then several helpers dropped their sticks when he came on their arm just by his pressure he caused so much pain, never felt that anymore by any dog
an ipo sleeve he squized around your arm like a vise grip, i wonder if there's still a dog somewere who can do that if you know of one please post his name

A good gripping dog still valued by people with livestock...for sure.
Had a new goat escape, went a 1/4 mile away and into neighbors goat pen with their herd, of mixed nannies and babies and a buck. No way to separate from the herd, no one fast enough to catch and hold a one hundred pound goat with horns. Using a catch rope out of the question, so other than shooting the goat, a dog was the only logical solution. I have a GSD, Eric, who I have used in the past to catch goats which are not tame and act like wild deer, who have jumped out or crashed a gate the wasn't latched. Eric will catch by the back of the neck, (which is a genetically desirable trait) where there are no vital organs to be damaged. But those other occasions were just one goat, running for the woods, he turned them back and caught them, held them til we got hold of the goat, and I outed him; the goat was put back where it belonged, uninjured.
This particular instance, there were at least ten goats in the herd, which included six little babies. I loaded Eric up in the van and drove over to the farm where our wayward goat was. Now, I'm going to have to get Eric to focus on ONE goat, my goat, and ignore the  babies milling around. I stood in the middle of the pen with Eric and kept turning him in the direction of my goat, even when the goat was behind the rest of the herd. After about ten minutes, I saw Eric following the right goat on his own, watching it, no matter what the other goats were doing. The split second my goat was not mixed in the herd, I released Eric,  gave him the drrush ( sp?) command. He went for my goat, working his way up the goat's  back til he had the desired back of neck hold. The man who owned the  goat herd held the big wether by the horns, I outed Eric and the job was done. Not one puncture or drop of blood on the goat, and believe me, a goat being held by a dog is anything but passive. We loaded the goat into a big goat crate in the van, loaded Eric up after a drink of water , and went home.

This is the way Cruise has gripped since he started Bite work 2 years ago. I,d call it full and it is genetic!


 

Joanro: "Judges don't like to see a dog participate with true fight,,,"

That´s not true, most of them DO love it. But they want to see an "out", too....and at that point mostly the difficulties begin.
I LOVE dogs with a calm full grip FIGHTING WITH THEIR WHOLE BODY.

Interesting and informative.   Thank you all very much.
THIS is one of the things that make PDB so addictive.

Joan -  just WOW !
I'll say it again -aren't they a marvellous breed ?

In police work, most trainers value a hard grip over a full grip. There are many full grips that are not hard at all, there are many three qtr grips that are paralyzing, thus effective in the work. Whether the dog outs or not has nothing to do with the grip....it is mostly a training issue. I have seen many soft dogs with full grips that when hit hard with stick hit will not out because they find comfort in the sleeve and don't want to go back to defensive posture....by same token a hard stick hit can cause a dog with big fight drive to not out as they escalate the fight. Both dogs not outing but for different reasons! Most LEO dogs do not get bite with correct presentation of arm on the streets....sorry folks....I know it sounds romantic but it ain't so.....most time these dogs bite the first part of the body they encounter....leg, foot, shoulder, chest , arm, etc....this does not lend itself to full calm bite....though in some cases it does. Paramount is an effective bite that will disable the individual and cause them to submit. This has been my experience, but I could be wrong???