what so good about a calm full grip?? - Page 6

sports are sports if you have a trained dog I don't think any of them are particular taxing on a decent dog.  you find out a heck of a lot more about dogs training them than you do from a trial in any sport.

i now plenty of dogs that bite full and hang on too that wont' engage if someone falls either, what's your point? They learned to bite that way thru training.  I'd bet again, my 100 dollars to your 10 that those dogs were coddled every step of the way to just get them on the trial field

thats good odds, i would take the bet just on the maths not the dogs. enough variation in any dogs that you will find a dog somewhere that displays whatever anyone's  point is. so man that bet on the odds alone makes good economic sense to take.

you won't get them odds in nevada.

He wins!,,

10/1. Not uncommon.

duke,

as a decoy i will tell you now there are sportsthat put pressure on dogs. environmental and physical. PSA has some unreal and serious scenarios to test dogs. And as a helper for a top trainer in the sport i have personally busted through boxes with full auto 9mm blanks caught dog after throwing bag of jugs and then shattering a bamboo stick over the dogs ribs while the dog attacked a hidden sleeve and the k9 brought the fight even harder/ so i would say some sports can get close to testing for the streets as close as it can get.
another day, we had all our dogs engage in shipping containers with stereo blasting in container and obstacles with decoy on to of obstacle in rear of container and had to fight and hold grips through out. just to prep our senior dogs for elevated stress in high level competition. so dont say every sport never puts any pressure on a dog.

with that said i will always believe you never know if a dog with engage a person until you see them do it. but with training you can make the percentage higher.

scareddecoy, there are some sports that will put the dogs in unknown situations like PSA and TART, but these are small sports in numbers compared to IPO/SchH  and ring and KNPV  where more or less all situations are known to the dog and the pressure put on the dog by the decoys is mostly the same every time

Zdog, you make exactly my point when you say that many dogs wit full calm grips can and will break under pressure, so the full calm grip in itself is no measure of quality but a result of drives

the question was what is good about a full grip, not what will happen to a full grip when pressured or after out on electric sleeve or whatever other scenario

and show me where I said grips are everything.  I believe I've said a few times, why do people put all their eggs in one basket when evaluating a dog, grips aren't everything, but they are important, etc.  and yes, weaker dogs will break under pressure if you apply more, but then they got to that point where they would bite full and calm and just hang on thru training.  Which is also what I said.  When they first start you coddle and baby them thru every step to maintain their grip.  The first time you show them a hint of pressure and their grip goes to heck, the helper stops or the dog bails.  Those dogs you have to show a stick to 1000 times before you tap them with it because the first 999 times you raise it their eyes get squinty and close and the grip pressure goes to near zero and if they didn't have canines stuck in the sleeve they'd be gone, but you coddle them thru till they don't.  I'd say grip is rather telling, you just have to pay attention and like I said, training is where you learn all about the dogs trials just proof what you've done.

I think a lot of people equate calm to equal dead when it has more to do with state of mind than any act of hanging off a sleeve.  

but anyway, a group of people much more dedicated than you or I, used grip as one of the main criteria in selecting working dogs.  They developed the most famous working dog around the world using this criteria.  I'm sure they knew nothing :)
 

I'm sure their goal was a bit more than a full calm grip, their goal was screwed by those who wanted a nice roach and a full calm grip, the two extremes of today, the opposites of versatility

so zdog those who select on grip know nothing, luc vansteenbrugge selected on grip (among other things ofcourse) so you mean he knows nothing about dogs? 

kyoto, How did you ascertain that I think those that place importance on grip know nothing?  That's the exact opposite that i've said repeatedly