will american breeders ever start breeding for a more well rounded GSD? - Page 9

nice looking gait picture.........is he able to jump well and scale walls if necessary?

 

my question is who gets to decide what is "well rounded".

my well rounded GSD would have the character that Gustav and joanro put emphasis on, very close to the mythical 90 degree shoulder, straight back and flexible rear, though no excessive length.

and just for the record, Blitzen describes eddy perfectly, he wants to start arguments but many of his threads become interesting because of the diversity of people willing to respond to them.

jmo,
Rik

Rik, I agree with you in ideal!  The problem that has persisted for last 40 years in America and rest of world is breeding for that mythical dog. People's ideals of what the ideal dog is should never be the basis of a breeding program for a variety of reasons....some will understand this and some will consider it blasphemy.

The trend is to breed first, ask questions later. Instant gratification. Few want to do their homework before breeding a litter. Note the meager and inaccurate responses here to any posts regarding anatomy. If there is so little interest in learning the basics - ie how to determine angulation and what  effect it has on the dog's performance - how can we except any productive discussions regarding something as intangible as character and how vital the will to serve is to this breed.

Eddy's threads are often thought provoking in spite of his intent

pictures, pictures,-- pictures are worth a thousand words. Most people who rely on pictures for their understanding of the GSD, would not know a good GSD if it bit them. I once saw an article written by an engineer which stated that in his opinion, by studying a picture of a honey bee, that it could not possibly be able to fly. The wings were too small compared to the size of the body. He concluded that this animal must be flightless. pictures, pictures

GSDstudent, it was a bumble bee, not a honeybee (biology major here)

There's one bit of supposed engineering info I'd like to see kicked out of the GSD world forever. That's the oft-repeated description of the curved back being stronger because it's like the arch of a bridge. BULLPUCKY!!

The spine of a living, breathing moving animal has NOTHING to do with bridges. Bridges are rigid, inflexible structures. Spines are designed to move and bend! 

During my riding days, I had a very good knowledge of how the horse moved, and why lameness developed. Horses may appear to have more or less level backs when you look at the section between the withers and croup, but the back MUST be able to bend if the horse is to jump effectively. It's called the 'bascule' and looks like this: http://lakesidelivery.co.uk/the-bascule/    No horse can jump effectively with a 'cold' or flat back.

A lot of research has been put into the biomechanics of a horse's gait, mostly because the people with the big money want to know how to treat and prevent lameness. When you've got a stakes hores that's been syndicated for $1 million, spending big bucks on research is worth it.

I wish someone would do the same for dogs. Or maybe someone has, and I just haven't heard about it yet.

I do remember that the area of the spine around the ribcage is the most inflexible part. (Look at the picture of the camel's skeleton and you'll see why.) There are long processes of bone extending up from the spine that the neck and shoulder muscles attach to. If you watch a slow motion film of a horse galloping, this area of the body doesn't move much at all. It's the area of the spine between pelvis and ribcage that does nearly all of the bending. The neck flexes quite a bit too, as you see in the photo I linked to. But if the spine doesn't bend so the rear legs can come underneath the body to provide forward propulsion, the animal can't gallop effectively at all,

But we're talking about a trotting animal here. Well, the trot is a two-beat gait, with diagonal legs (left fore and right hind, right fore and left hind ) working together. If the legs aren't working in harmony, you lose power in the stride.  Many of the pictures of modern GSDs trotting do not show the legs working together, because the structure does not allow for balanced movement. (Okay, leaning against a tight leash doesn't help...)

Thank you Sun silver! The engineering of a bridge is not the entire point in my example. You can imagine a bridge with too much curve upwards, so that it also has no advantage  [ roach back] But you clear up a lot of the misconception. I refer more to the bad impression the ''show stack'' gives to the structure of the GSD. This stack shows off in theory where the hind leg strikes the ground when reaching under the dog and where the hind leg leaves the ground on the follow through. I get queasy when I see show poses with the hock fully on the ground. This part of the leg should never touch the ground during a trot. The trot described for the GSD is a ''flying trot''. This flying trot is not achieved by other dogs. To me the flying trot is ambiguous and only to be part of the dialog of proper GSD structure and motion. Many years ago I heard an AKC judge named Bill Leonard speak on gaiting. He thought that dogs achieved good gaiting from 3 factors. 1] proper conformation; 2] Drive, the need to move; 3] conditioning. Mr Leonard  felt that without those 3 factors a dog would not compete at a high level in the conformation ring and I think it applys to the working world in that a dog with proper structure but  with out drive or condition will get left behind a dog possessing a better balance of the 3 factors.  balance grass hopper, balance

---> .........is he able to jump well and scale walls if necessary?

He can leap tall buildings in a single bound. Look up in the sky. is it a bird? A Plane? Its superdog!!!! ;) He also has a HUGE vocabulary and understands every word that is said to him after it has been said once. You cannot paint an entire segment of the breed with a broad brush. Tats just silly.

He sounds like a great dog, Marjorie!  That level of understanding is very rare, but not unheard of. The Littlest Hobo dogs had it, and Chuck even taught them to respond to commands in German and French, too!

Hey, why not? We speak German to our dogs in Schutzhund!

gstdtudent, my post wasn't specifically referring to yours. It's just been a  long time pet peeve of mine, and when you mentioned the word 'engineer'...