German rules for German Shepherds - Page 23

Vonissk, our KC still does not think we should have to submit
H, E scores before Registration (litters or individual dogs),
unless as a breeder you are part of the KC's Accredited Breeder
Scheme, where you buy into the privilege of having to use health
tests, and then when you register your stock it is known by your
Kennel Name that you are an ABS member and therefore better
than non ABS members ...[even if having been tested your dogs
fall short !]

No it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, either.  But it is supposed
to be gradually encouraging ppl to join in health testing and keeping
their dogs well, and provide extensive help and paperwork with all
puppies sold;  and it is 'policed', in that they can be inspected.

Meanwhile, the KC website has a record of stock with its H and E
results (eye tests etc, too - some of which ARE compulsory), so IF the
breeder or owner has done them and notified the KC of them, you can
then call up the scores to check them.  If the KC have the info, they will
put a score / result on their version of a dog's Pedigree - but only I think
for THAT dog, not the dogs in its ancestry.   But much of the GSD world
sticks H&E info on every other place possible, often for several generations;  
and it has to be recorded on Survey Forms, (which the Breed Council, not
the KC, are independantly responsible for);  and better yet, lots of ppl include 
the info in their adverts and on their web pages.
 

Nice thread Susie, as you noticed there are thousands of breeders here in the US that do not care about breed standards, health, or working abilities. It was a good thought you had in sharing your opinion on how to better the breed here in the USA and it is not dissimilar to the intention of the breed founders. The problem here is we have missed the boat and not holding to any standard has created the climate we now live with. If we had adhered to the German system of breed surveys back in 1927 and stuck with it we perhaps would have a much larger support system for producing good dogs and we would not be hearing the excuse of not enough helpers or no clubs close enough. The GSDCA and the AKC bear a lot of the responsibility and still carry a lot of weight in public perception of what a German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be. Most Americans don't know that the dogs they see in Westminster are any different than the dogs they see riding in the back of a police car. We are blessed with some top notch trainers here and good dogs if you know how to look. It all comes down to PRIORITIES, a breeder should first be a trainer, how else do you know what you are producing or are able to guide someone looking for a puppy or provide them with the support they need? PRIORITIES also come to play when deciding what comes first, your time and money or the quality of your breeding program. I have no respect for someone living in a Mansion with ten breeding bitches in the kennel telling me they don't have the money to train, where the hell are your priorities.

I know one of those breeders, living in a mansion. He doesn't title his dogs himself, he has them titled. Doesn't really care about the dogs he produces either. Picked a couple of his dogs from craigslist and placed them via rescues. Have absolutely no respect for that kind of breeder whatsoever.
 

the thing that makes our country GREAT is also the thing thats hurts us MANY TIMES.................FREEDOM. americans are free to do DAMN NEAR WHATEVER WE WANT. thats y u have backyard breeders and other stuff like that. america only regulates things that have to do with safety and money, and dont even handle saftey things all that well.

Thing is, we are not as free as we think we are. It's a felt freedom but true freedom to do what you want to do, doesn't exist. Can you take a dog on a bus or train? Into a Mall? Beergarden? To events?

In some areas, the numbers of dogs you can own are regulated, mandatory spay and neuter...

We are really not as free as we think we are. That time has long been gone!

very true B.E. I do agree with you on that statement.

Only if you say your dog is a service dog, but that doesn't guarantee homeowner's insurance, another possible problem fora  dog owner.

Baerenfangs & Vonissk just laid out the exact experience that most people wanting to do Schutzhund in the USA experience and in return Susie & SitasMom regurgitate thier comments as if they are tone-deaf and are unable to deal with facts.  I'm in the same boat as Baerenfangs & Vonissk, but I have something to add, schutzhund has become LESS ACCESSIBLE than it was when I was child and my unlces were very involved in the sport.  As Baerenfangs has noted, the USA is NOT as dog friendly of a country as one would believe.  As far as I know, from my travels, only Japan, China and France have stricter regulations for pet ownership.  The comment made by supakamario is pure, unabridged, patriotic, nonsense and hasn't been true for dog ownership since as late as the 1990's in the USA.

Then there are all the other issues which some have chosen to not discuss here: 

-The start-up cost to train a dog and then maintain and build that training over its lifetime are ASTRONOMICAL in the USA for schutzhund.  The AKC club fees and trial entry fees are far closer to being a reality for 99% of all dog owners in the USA, schutzhund is NOT and NEVER will be in the same ballpark price wise.

-There are NO schutzhund clubs within a 2 hour drive of my home and the ones that you can get to don't seem to want new members without a long history in Schutzhund.  The AKC is the ONLY game in town for 75% of all dog enthusiasts in the USA.  More people would try schutzhund, if given the chance, but they usually get turned away more often than you imagine.  Just recently, a lady I practice AKC events with took her dog to a schutzhund trainer for an evaluation, so as to start working on the BH.  Guess what happened after the evaluation?  The trainer said the club was too full and that she also did not have time to train another person privately.  So, WHY DID SHE AGREE TO MEET & REVIEW THE DOG IN THE FIRST PLACE?

-If an American has interest in a dog club, the AKC is pretty much guaranteed to get them first.  The reality is that most schutzhund clubs don't want to train newbies, nor do they want "weekend warriors" who can only come to the club 1-2 times a week, for no more than a couple of hours.  They only want people shooting for schutzhund 3 and/or breeders taking their dogs to be titled.  The schutzhund clubs do NOT want a "regular joe" who wants to only do the BH, OB and tracking.  Its all or nothing with most of these schutzhund clubs; not including the ones who don't want anyone in their club to simultaniously be members of USCA and/or GSDCA, or whatever other combination "no-no's" they have come up with, WDA, AWDF, etc. 

-I would argue that Schutzhund clubs are possibly on the WAY OUT in the USA, simply because aging members, no newbie polices and plain old attrition will put it to rest one day.  USMRA and the two USA French Ring clubs have a far brighter future in the approaching decades end, in my opinion, when it comes to NEW membership growth and total membership numbers for those under 35 years of age.  The AKC will take then lions share and the rest will go to some other AWDF affiliated specialty club.  The USCA is pretty much toast under these conditions.

I don't think Schutzhund is getting bigger or smaller anytime soon.  It will have it's same ebbs and flows.  I do not see FR taking over and Mondio?  what? are there like 7 certified decoys in the entire country?  They already have their share of in fighting and they're barely started in this country.  

That said, the majority of people I have trained with in IPO and mondio have been absolutely GREAT people.  Very good dog trainers, dedicated, and many have taken more than a few minutes to teach me a thing or two.  More often than not, i've found that people that are willing to learn and are genuinely interested in dogs and dog sport are given every opportunity to succeed.  Even those that want nothing more than to work with their dog in OB or tracking and have a better pet.  

The only time I have really seen a club or group become exlcusionary is when dealing with ego's #1 or people that are more in love with the idea than the actual work.  Maybe I've just been lucky.  But there are a lot of reasons for the lack of growth.

our dog culture is far different than a lot other places and it leads to a lot of crap.  Crappy public policies concerning dogs, crappy dog owners and crappy societal views.  Around here dogs are banned in all city parks, there's one tiny dog park, you can basically travel nowhere with your dogs unless in your own vehicle and then you have to sneak them around to let them out anywhere.  We have miles and miles of trails and dogs are banned on there too.  Most parks sit empty, great use of resources.

and even people themselves suck.  I do helper/decoy work.  Love it.  I'd go to a public park 4 days a week and work dogs if I could.  problem is, if anything goes wrong, somebody wants someone else to pay for it.  Even had a handler that tripped herself and broke a bone, decided she wanted to sue the club.  Like that stupid bitch didn't know the sport had it's risks :) and still she wanted someone else to pay for it.  It was her dog that pulled her over for crying outloud.    of course it was one person.  There's been many others that have had unfortunate things happen and they never thought of making everyone else pay for had happened, but it only takes one.

and then you have those that use you to train all their client dogs, they make thousands and you get thanked by getting bitched about because you couldn't make club training. give up every saturday to train other people's dogs and 5 client dogs, while your's sit in a crate and get to ride home with you after sitting all day.  If that doesn't turn you on to dog sports what will :)

I've never NOT taken the time to help explain things to someone that asked a question.  I might not drive 2 hours one way to work someone's dog for free anymore, but most are more than welcome to drive to me and get out and do something.  Most are unwilling.  I think we have a great group now.  A mix of sports, some that have won at the highest level nationally and some that yet to compete at any level.  We get together, we train, we shoot the shit, help each other out and then go about our business.  

It's easy to get along, do your work, dont' be an asshole.  Pretty simple.  we know life happens, we know everyone has different goals, dogs, abitlities, etc.  We don't do hour long private sessions, but will show how and help along the way.  YOU must work on it outside of club too.  YOU must be realistic about your dog.  YOU must be realistic about your ability and the commitment you have to your dog and sport and what you wish to achieve.  The rest of us are there to help move equipment, do decoy work, provide distractions, give a 3rd person view of the exercise you asked for help with.  Provide a support system, nobody can achieve much alone in any of these sports.  

zdog, there is nothing wrong with anything that you have said above,  I agree with your outlook on dog sports in general, but in my experience that outlook is exclusive to AKC clubs, NOT schutzhund clubs.  Maybe the region I live in is different than yours, the USA is a big place, so I don't doubt such is possible. 

As for the growth of Mondio and French Ring vs Schutzhund, let me clarify further, I said the growth in the 35 and under crowd, that I meet at AKC events seems pretty robust.  I also said AWDF Specialty Clubs.  Off the top of my head, the Boxer Club and the Tervuren have access to helpers too, there are many others as well.  In the past these folks would have been primed and ready to join USCA or WDA, but not today.  Nearly all of the converts were turned off big time by the schutzhund clubs when they inquired about starting or were outright turned away.  So they looked for something as close as possible and the sports that answered the call were Mondio, French Ring and the specialty clubs.  Sure I don't know what the attrition rate is with long term membership, but I can tell you with confidence that once the Schutzhund clubs burn bridges, younger folks check out Mondio and French ring as a reaction and NEVER look back again at joining a dedicated Schutzhund club.  I also know in my area that the Mondio and French Ring clubs have non-member training days that are packed, while the local schutzhund clubs have their usual core dozen, with nothing in regards to newbies or outreach efforts.

Also to address your comment about infighting, well all competing organization have some of this.  However, with Mondio and French Ring, it seems to me that infighting occurs at the committee level, not the member level.  In schutzhund clubs everybody needs to "tow the line" or get out.  One of our AKC club members is being asked to give up her membership in the AKC or leave the USCA club.  I have NEVER heard of this happening to a Mondio or French Ring club member, regardless of any animosity between the "higher ups", in competing organizations.  Guess where she is getting her next scorebook?  Not USCA.

Back to the example about the lady I train with for AKC venues, who was told there was no room for her, well guess what her next step was?  She went to the Mondio club and they said they could help her with the BH, but also invited her to give Mondio a chance too.  Essentially these people may still be competing in Schutzhund, but the Mondio, French ring and specialty clubs are getting the membership dues and training fees for the BH and OB.  Its all anecdotal and no one on the Schutzhund side will admit to this, even if my intuition is correct, but I'm definitely telling it how I see it unfolding.