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by Hired Dog on 26 March 2014 - 14:03
Defense Sarah, is based on fear. Some may argue with this, but, its true. The reason great helpers do not push a dog into too much defense while training it is because it will make the dog go into avoidance. Prey drive is subject to exhaustion, defense is not, for survival purproses.
A dog in defense is fighting for its life so its actions are violent and the dig is not clear headed. Yes, all serious protection dogs need a degree of defense to ass seriousness to the protection, but, it has to be measured and never pushed to the point of avoidance.
Civil is simply a dog who is willing to bite a human with no visable equipment on...a dog that is pushed in defense will bite anything as well, but, because it wont be as clear in the head, its "civility" if you will, is not for the same reason as a stable dog with a clear head that bites civil is.
I hope this makes sense.
A dog in defense is fighting for its life so its actions are violent and the dig is not clear headed. Yes, all serious protection dogs need a degree of defense to ass seriousness to the protection, but, it has to be measured and never pushed to the point of avoidance.
Civil is simply a dog who is willing to bite a human with no visable equipment on...a dog that is pushed in defense will bite anything as well, but, because it wont be as clear in the head, its "civility" if you will, is not for the same reason as a stable dog with a clear head that bites civil is.
I hope this makes sense.
by Smiley on 26 March 2014 - 14:03
Hired dog....thanks but I am confused!!!!! I'm sorry. I'm trying!!
So, why would we want a dog to work in fear? Why would we like that defense drive?
Am I understanding a civil dog is a well controlled, balanced, stable dog that has the natural inclination to be able to bite on command or bite without command if the situation warrants the action. They do not need a game to act. But, they are not doing it out of fear but out of intelligence, stability, and training. They will not bite randomly but can back it up if they need too?
So, why would we want a dog to work in fear? Why would we like that defense drive?
Am I understanding a civil dog is a well controlled, balanced, stable dog that has the natural inclination to be able to bite on command or bite without command if the situation warrants the action. They do not need a game to act. But, they are not doing it out of fear but out of intelligence, stability, and training. They will not bite randomly but can back it up if they need too?
by susie on 26 March 2014 - 15:03
A lot of different temperaments - not always easy to distinguish
No dog is one way street only - they are the result of a lot of drives and instincts.
The most important part of a family dog is firmness ( stable nerves ),
for working in IPO about 80% prey, 20% defense is perfect, for protection dogs 50/50.
Defense in itself is not negative, but training is different, and normally these kinds of dogs do not make friends easily.
This in regard to your question - most ( not all ) of defense dogs WILL bite the child climbing the fence - so this dog is a lot of responsibility.
The more defense, the more stable nerves you need - poor training, and you may get a fear-biter, good training, and you may get the perfect one man/woman dog.
Civil = will bite without trigger like sleeve or suit, but most of this is training.
For the most fun sports you don´t need a dog with defense, you need to take care of nerves, intelligence, staying power, and the willingness to please.
Only as a sidenote: A stable and not bored dog doesn´t bark much.
No dog is one way street only - they are the result of a lot of drives and instincts.
The most important part of a family dog is firmness ( stable nerves ),
for working in IPO about 80% prey, 20% defense is perfect, for protection dogs 50/50.
Defense in itself is not negative, but training is different, and normally these kinds of dogs do not make friends easily.
This in regard to your question - most ( not all ) of defense dogs WILL bite the child climbing the fence - so this dog is a lot of responsibility.
The more defense, the more stable nerves you need - poor training, and you may get a fear-biter, good training, and you may get the perfect one man/woman dog.
Civil = will bite without trigger like sleeve or suit, but most of this is training.
For the most fun sports you don´t need a dog with defense, you need to take care of nerves, intelligence, staying power, and the willingness to please.
Only as a sidenote: A stable and not bored dog doesn´t bark much.
by Hired Dog on 26 March 2014 - 15:03
We like SOME defense drive for the seriousness it adds to bite work. All prey is a lot of fun for a dog, but, when its a REAL life situation, when your life is on the line, you want the dog to act serious and not bite in prey/play drive as most dogs do today.
This is a long and not as easy to get into subject in a forum Sarah, there are many variables that can be included, first and foremost being the dog's temperament...
A civil dog is a dog that has the genetic desire to engage a man at anytime it needs to. Does that mean the dog is stable? No, it can be, but it may not be. Does it mean the dog IS indeed stable? Sure, it can be, but, again, we are going back to the temperament of the dog and what else it brings to the table. Again, this is not an easy subject to get into in a place like this because of all the variables it can include so dont draw any conclusions based on a conversation in a forum...this is just an outline.
This is a long and not as easy to get into subject in a forum Sarah, there are many variables that can be included, first and foremost being the dog's temperament...
A civil dog is a dog that has the genetic desire to engage a man at anytime it needs to. Does that mean the dog is stable? No, it can be, but it may not be. Does it mean the dog IS indeed stable? Sure, it can be, but, again, we are going back to the temperament of the dog and what else it brings to the table. Again, this is not an easy subject to get into in a place like this because of all the variables it can include so dont draw any conclusions based on a conversation in a forum...this is just an outline.
by Paul Garrison on 26 March 2014 - 15:03
Smiley
These dogs are known for balance. But they did produce some hard street type dogs as well. Susie is right on in what she said. Within good working lines it is easy to find medium drive dogs that would be right up your alley. Nobody produces litters that they would all be what I use.
These dogs are known for balance. But they did produce some hard street type dogs as well. Susie is right on in what she said. Within good working lines it is easy to find medium drive dogs that would be right up your alley. Nobody produces litters that they would all be what I use.
by Smiley on 26 March 2014 - 19:03
Ok, thank you guys for the explanations!
by Smiley on 26 March 2014 - 19:03
Does anyone know which Kirschental dogs were well balanced with solid nerves and able to move easily between herding and IPO?
by Smiley on 26 March 2014 - 19:03
Also, for pedigree people, it seems the early dogs imported to America from Germany were true working dogs even though west German.
when did the change occur with west german dogs that moved them away from Schutzhund, police, and military and more towards the modern show dog? Time frame...era?
or, am I mistaken and the early German imports that were incorporated into American programs were really East German dogs?
or, were they culls and poor working dogs?
it seems the early dogs imported looked like working dogs despite the show success? Curious when that change in "look" occurred? Did it correlate with a decline in working ability?
when did the change occur with west german dogs that moved them away from Schutzhund, police, and military and more towards the modern show dog? Time frame...era?
or, am I mistaken and the early German imports that were incorporated into American programs were really East German dogs?
or, were they culls and poor working dogs?
it seems the early dogs imported looked like working dogs despite the show success? Curious when that change in "look" occurred? Did it correlate with a decline in working ability?
by susie on 26 March 2014 - 19:03
Karl Füller was a professioneal shepherd. He used several of his breeding stock for daily work, but when the "split" came up he bred to showlines.
That said he used the showlines for shepherding, and showed that it´s possible.
A lot of his dogs were famous in the showring, others (!) were famous on the HGH trial.
It´s not easy to distinguish between his "show"dogs and his "working"dogs, maybe this will help:
http://www.kirschental.de/index.php/en/history
That said he used the showlines for shepherding, and showed that it´s possible.
A lot of his dogs were famous in the showring, others (!) were famous on the HGH trial.
It´s not easy to distinguish between his "show"dogs and his "working"dogs, maybe this will help:
http://www.kirschental.de/index.php/en/history
by Sunsilver on 26 March 2014 - 19:03
I don't have the time to go into details abou this, so I'll let Jim Engel explain. As you will quickly gather, he's a hostile witness... 
The Martin Shepherd http://www.angelplace.net/usca/MartinShepherd.htm
This article will explain how things got to the state they were in when Koos Hassing wrote the article I linked to earlier in this thread.
The Martin Shepherd http://www.angelplace.net/usca/MartinShepherd.htm
This article will explain how things got to the state they were in when Koos Hassing wrote the article I linked to earlier in this thread.
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