Where are Old style lines in America still available? - Page 5

Susie, I am not assessing the reasons, just stating that a working breed should be judged by its ability to work....I defined work as service dogs, guide dogs and military/LE dogs....obviously all of them aren't biting endeavors,( I know you didn't say that, but I refuse to engage people who either can't read what was written or is too ignorant to rightly acknowledge what was written. )
As for police dogs, I don't disagree with your assessment, based on actually training police dogs then and now. I know first hand the status of the breed in LE work today. 
I think we pretty much see things the same way, I just don't view sport or show as work. Sure, there was a degree of nerviness in some of the border dogs and sentry dogs in military.....but these dogs still performed a service that their temperament enabled them to do. 
I had some old American bred dogs back when they were still used for service/guide/and military and police work. Often these dogs were 2nd,3rd, or 4th generation German dogs. There are still dogs like that today, but very difficult to find anymore.

" I think we pretty much see things the same way, I just don't view sport or show as work. "

Show never has been "work", it´s a selection for the standard. Showing a dog more often than once or twice became a "sport" on its own, but it´s not necessary for the breed.

Sport is what it is called, sport, but within this sport ( and once again, I´m not talking about the point hunters, but about the people training and titling their stock on a regular basis ) every honest trainer and breeder is able to see the working abilities and the temperament of his dogs.
A police dog normally does have to proof more, but how many dogs are bred from police dogs ( not mentioning the standard here, only access - not many females available, and some police dogs still don´t have the temperament I would like for breeding, not all of them are great ...)

If we would start breeding dogs out of guide dogs only (as an example ) the temperament of the German Shepherd would be lost within some generations.

" There are still dogs like that today, but very difficult to find anymore."
Mostly they are owned by "unknown" people in the small clubs, no point hunters, but proud of their dogs, not used much for breeding, because the "big bucks" still go where the ribbons are.

Last point Susie, when I reference sport, I am talking about a mindset for breeding. There have always been dogs that have been titled in past 50 years. The difference is, in the past the titling of dogs was a prelude or foundation for other uses for the dog such as show, work or service,  or to be able to be bred in Europe. Today, and in past thirty years, Sport has become a lifetime culture for the dog. From eight weeks to retirement, the dog's life revolves around sport and enhancing the traits to excell in sport. 
I know of very very few GS breeders then and now who have been successful at breeding " For " police dogs. The successful breeders that I know bred for versatility and health and out of these breeding you would get LE capable dogs in a litter albeit usually 2 or 3 at most out of litter of eight. Breeding " for " police dogs is just as asinine for this breed as breeding for color or angulation or prey drive.

Gustav, the dogs you mentioned as having the sound temperament to do service/guide/military and were old style bloodlines that were 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation removed from the German bloodlines.......do you remember their breeding? I know that was probably a long time ago so if you can't remember than I completely understand.

In modern times, have you or anyone come across any American lines that seem to hold up to your scrutiny. I am ot sure if they would be ASL or just American lines. Like Susie said, these dogs are probably from unknown backyard breeders who were dedicated to their dogs and not interested in selling out for show or sport. Thanks!!

Sarah

 

The net result of all of this is that the Police and Military are
increasingly gravitating to the Malinois.

They gravitate towards mals because mals are what they are and not because gsds are not any good dog to work. Mals dont require as much handler bond to work and change handlers quicker and easier in case of need arrises IMO. Also a mal works more years than a gsd. To get the money's worth to the accountants in the pds purchase office it is more economical. 



 

" They cost much less due to lack of political BS,,,"
I´m with you about this point.

" It is a fact that the vast majority of GSD today lack the proper drives for REAL life work, police, military, etc. "
I´m not with you about this point - a lot of Malinois lack the proper drive, too. Our shelters are full of them already, and they become more and more.
The Malinois, fancy and trendy for a couple of years now, is following the German Shepherd breed.
Sad

OT right now, but maybe interesting for you: My grandfather,with whom I spent the most time during my childhood, owned a Groenendael during the seventies ( at that time the breed was almost unknown in Germany ), a great working dog. I don´t want to talk about these dogs now -trends did change several breeds

Susie, are you in Germany?  That is too bad about the Malinois in animal shelters. Luckily they are not popular here yet.  I just looked and would have to drive 4.5 hours to find the closest one available in a shelter and at least 3 hours (doesn't say where in the state the dog is located, could be more like 7 hours) to the closest one available through the breed rescue.

It used to be easy to find a Mali that was real aggressive man eater now they are social for the most part. In the 70's and 80's it was not hard to find balanced real work bite for real GSD's, but now most are loaded up with prey little to no defense and very little fight. It's a sad thing if you want a protection dog.